95. Life is the Best Virtual Reality Game with Justin Keltner

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:00:03

Welcome to Fine is a 4-Letter Word, the podcast that empowers you to say fuck being fine. Tired of being stuck in a place where you say everything's fine when it's really not fine at all. You're not alone. I'm your host, Lori Saitz. I've been there too, and so have my guests. Here's a secret. All it takes is a conscious decision to change and then restructure beliefs so your actions take you in the right direction. That's where Fine is a 4-Letter Word comes in. Each week, you'll hear inspiring stories from people who have transformed their lives and businesses and practical tips and takeaways to move you from spinning in place to forward action so you can create a life of joy. Thanks for tuning in. Let's get started. Hey there. Today we are rolling out the red carpet for tech wizard and email scientist Justin Keltner. In addition to supercharging email marketing for coaches with high ticket programs, Justin leads transformational men's groups worldwide. Hear about Justin's entrepreneurial journey inspired by his hard working immigrant grandparents and then his parents, who ran their own mortgage business from building his first website at just five and a half. Yes, you heard that right. Five and a half years old to exploring life patterns through reverse engineering.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:01:36

Justin's fascination with technology and analytical thinking has helped him navigate the world This way of thinking provided refuge from an unpredictable home environment and is now his tool for creating business solutions. We're comparing the risk of entrepreneurship to traditional employment, talking about how to learn from mentors and the importance of self alignment in actions and decisions. We discuss disconnection, loneliness and Justin's own struggle with depression, as well as his strategies for avoiding burnout and why he moved to Mexico. I'm thrilled to have you on this journey. Of course, you can go to Zen sitcom to get your copy of the Short Guide to Working Less and Living Better. Also known as The Five Easy Ways to Start Living a Sabbatical Life. You know what else you can get there. The newly revised and released How to Feel Comfortable, Confident and Courageous at Networking Events Book. Fun fact Justin and I met at a networking event a few months ago to get the book for just $7. Look for the link that says Networking at the top of the home page or find the link in the show notes. Hello and welcome to Fine is a 4-Letter Word. My guest today is Justin Keltner. Welcome to the show, Justin.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:03:04

Thanks so much for having me. Laura It's great to be here.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:03:06

Yeah, well let's just jump right in. I just want to mention too, that you and I met through like an online networking group, right? Yeah. So many good ways to meet people these days, like. That's one good thing, I guess, that came out of well, we were doing Zoom meetings before that, but from pandemic. Well, it just kind of interaction.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:03:28

Yeah. Made everything so much more accessible and you really don't have to be in one specific location. Like I'm out here in Guadalajara, Mexico, and I could just as well be in LA or New York or Miami. Nobody would really know the difference.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:03:41

Yeah. Yeah. And I want to talk a little bit about that in a in a minute because you call yourself a digital nomad.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:03:50

Mhm.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:03:51

Yeah. All right. Before we get to that and before we get to how you became one, I want to go back a few years. Tell me what the values and beliefs that you were raised with. What did you learn growing up and how has that impacted you as an adult?

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:04:12

I think there's a lot of angles there. So when you say values and beliefs, do you mean like around money, around family, around relationships, however you want.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:04:22

To interpret that? Yeah. Where do you want to go with it? What were the ones that that really shaped you into who you are?

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:04:32

Well, let's start with the positive. I would say that my grandparents were probably some of the strongest. Positive role models that I had growing up, specifically in that they're both immigrants. They came from from Russia and their family. Well, actually they came from Ukraine, but their family before that came from Russia. And so they were immigrants to the US. And one of the biggest values I think, that I learned from my grandparents was just the value of of hard work. And there's different sides to that coin, I suppose, because I can certainly feel myself even today just kind of hitting up against against that pattern sometimes of you need to work hard for money, you need to work hard for money. But there was definitely this this drive that was instilled in me at an early age of entrepreneurship. And my parents were also entrepreneurs. They had a mortgage business for many years. And yeah, so, so kind of between my parents and my grandparents, it was always like, you know, you're not taking, you know, just a just a job or a handout or just, you know, clocking in. You're, you're really being entrepreneurial and putting in the work and the time to make money while also, for the most part, living life on your terms. That again, there's all sorts of sides to that coin because. On one hand, you have a lot of freedom as an entrepreneur and then on the other hand. You're responsible for absolutely everything in your business and your life. So that was that was definitely from a from a business and entrepreneurial growth perspective. That was that was certainly one of the things that that influenced me.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:06:19

Yeah, it's interesting because a lot of times when you talk to people about being an entrepreneur, they think of it as being so risky and scary. And an unstable at the same time. Right.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:06:34

Here's the thing. Like having a job is actually really unstable. I was just going to say, look at these hundreds of thousands of layoffs here just in the last couple months with all these all these tech companies. Like what? When you so one book that I that I really recommend is is called Choose your self by by James Altucher and he's got another one called the Choose Your Self Guide to Wealth. But those two books were very impactful for me. And one of the things that he talks about is this whole idea of of how many sources of income do you have? And the way that he puts it is how many people. Can say no to you. So if, like if you were to be rejected, let's say, by your boss and they say, okay, no, you're not working with us anymore, what happens? Basically, you're screwed versus if you've got five or 10 or 15 clients that you're doing services for, which personally I'm transitioning out of in a big way and I'm looking at a bigger picture and saying, okay, well, how do I take that a step up and, and say, make my income much less reliant on on one or a small group of people. And the way to do that is to build your audience and to have things that you're selling that aren't just reliant on you because then you can scale both your impact and also it's a big diversification thing, right? So right. That's what people think that with jobs is that they're stable. But in reality, no, they could fire you tomorrow. But if you have your own business. Yes. If there's a big client or two and they all stop paying you, that could be a problem. But it's a lot less likely that all of those things happen in a negative way versus, okay, tomorrow you no longer have a job. So I think that there's different I agree with that. But yeah, long term, I don't think that entrepreneurship is necessarily more risky than than having a job.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:08:22

Yeah, No, I completely agree with you. I was just saying what I've heard a lot of people say.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:08:27

Oh, I know. And that's why I wanted to touch on.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:08:29

Usually they're the ones who are not the entrepreneurs, right? The entrepreneurs are not saying that. They're saying, I'm unemployable now.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:08:35

So it's it's true. I mean, once you have a taste of working for yourself and the freedom that gives you, it's very difficult to be able to go and be part of an ecosystem that maybe isn't the most efficient way for you to deliver your value to the world. Yeah.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:08:54

So, yeah, it's it's not comfortable at all. All right. You mentioned your grandparents were from Ukraine and Russia before your family before that. Do you know how to speak Russian? I do. Did they teach you? Yeah. Okay. I was a little because.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:09:11

But.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:09:11

Yeah, but they did teach you.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:09:13

But, yeah, I grew up speaking English and Russian and now Spanish.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:09:17

Okay, because my grandfather came from there. And then I think he never spoke another word except English and did not teach my father. So yeah, I think.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:09:30

It's really important to teach, to teach your kids and your grandkids the the native tongue, because otherwise language and culture just, just kind of gets lost through generations. And, and yeah, America is a big melting pot but also it's important to to preserve your your your native. Language in your native culture and all these other things that really make you who you are. Because even if we don't know it, there's all those things from from our grandparents and parents and our ancestors. They they influence us even if on a subconscious level in so many different ways.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:10:08

Yeah. So going back to the values and and beliefs that you were raised with, those were the positive ones. And you mentioned the hard work thing, which I think we may have talked about before in our first conversation about that double edged sword, because then you get that you've been trained or brainwashed with the belief that hard work is what leads to success. And so you are in this vicious circle of I must work harder to be more successful, to accomplish more, to produce more, and then that just leads to burnout and overwhelm.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:10:43

Yeah, that's that's so true. It's it's never about working harder. It's about becoming more efficient in, well, frankly, in the output. Right. And making sure that the output is something that people actually want. That's what I've learned anyway.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:11:00

Yeah, Well, and you started out talking about output, working with computers.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:11:06

So. So it's funny. Um, I'll tell you, like, a little. A little more of a of a personal, um, you know, angle on this. But when I was growing up, um, I mean, my parents kind of both had their own shit going on, right? Like, with, with patterns and addictions and different things that perhaps weren't the most conducive to family growth and connection and things like that. Um, when I was five and a half, I built my first website and I was able to do that because my dad, I mean, I'm sure he's like, okay, Justin will probably enjoy this, but also he's like, How can I occupy this little, this little child? And yeah, And so he sat me down in front of the computer and showed me how to use a program called Microsoft Front Page. This was in 97, I believe, and made sure that I did every single keystroke myself. So I actually built the thing. It wasn't like, Oh, you know, this is just like I really I really built it. And little by little, I started, uh, building a stronger connection with computers and with technology. And one of the things that I realized and this this has been through a lot of just really years and years of personal development work and discovery and, and things like that. But I realize that some of the patterns that I created early on were from realizing that the environment around me was a little bit, shall we say.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:12:31

I don't know if trepidatious is the word, but chaotic and unstable. Unstable. There weren't there weren't very many things that I could really accurately predict. And so I realized that computers were extremely predictable. I could put one piece of data in and then expect to get another piece of data out. And most of the time it would work. Fairly well. And so I realized, hey, I can I can trust in this, this thing in front of me. So that's that's where I ended up teaching myself, computer programming and software design and later marketing and business. But it all started around that love for technology that. If I'm being honest, was probably in big part created from that void or from from a lack of having that same thing in what I would call the real world. And yeah, the irony is this thing called life is really the best virtual reality game that was ever created. And people are still, you know, entrenched in the Xbox and the goggles and all these other things. This is the best virtual reality game. But I didn't know that. And so I thought that that was like more real than than all of this around us. It's.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:13:48

Well, yeah, it was for sure more predictable because this all around us is not predictable at all. And that's part of the, the, the lessons that we learn. Right. About allowing. Things to be instead of trying to force them to be what you expect or would like. I just go back to that whole thing of like a lot of times we talk about making things happen and there's only so much you can do to contribute to something to an outcome. But you can't always you can rarely predict exactly as easily as you can with a computer program what's going to happen in the real world.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:14:33

And that's. That's true. And. There certainly are ways to to make life and business more predictable. I think that actually and I don't know if this is this is going like to tangential, but the way that I did it is is I. I modeled in many ways. I modeled reality upon what I learned about computers and technology.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:15:01

Tell me more. This is I don't think this is tangent. I think this is where we're supposed to go.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:15:07

Sure. So. Well, I don't think I've ever really delved into this before in terms of just sort of meta analyzing it. But here's what it looks like, kind of kind of on a on a day to day. Whenever certain situations. Arise in life, there's an opportunity. To learn from that situation. And you could say learn in the generic term of, oh, like great, I learned a lesson, I learned something there. But instead of just basing my learning on the outcome, what I like to do is reverse. Reverse engineer the entire situation and say. What is really going on here, like at a pattern level. So you reverse engineer the entire thing and you look at it as a process. So, you know, I did X and then Y happened and then this person said this and then this happened and then this. This deal got structured this way and then this other thing occurred. And so instead of just saying, okay, great, like this is a good experience or a bad experience, I'm putting a label on it and then putting it in a nice little box and great, that was it. I just take it apart. So when I was a kid, one of the things that I think maybe pissed my parents off the most was that they would always buy me all these expensive toys. Um, you know, computers sure didn't really mess with those too much, but like, they'd buy me toy airplanes and all these other things like boats.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:16:31

And what I would do is instead of just playing with the toy like a normal child, what I would I would actually take the thing apart. So sometimes I was even able to put it back together. Most of the time I wasn't, but I learned a hell of a lot. Yeah, from from the process that was like I understood, okay, you've got this chip and this circuit. And when I was when I was 15, I taught myself electrical engineering and I built a business actually building and selling these high power laser pointers. So I learned like actually how to make circuits and what, you know, what a diode was and a capacitor and a resistor and how they all work together and the math behind it. Um, but going back to, to kind of the life analogy here when you take apart situations. Like I did with those those toy airplanes when I was little. You start to realize that there are certain patterns and those patterns, whether it's around systems, around processes, around people. Those patterns allow you to predict with a pretty good degree of certainty what might happen if you were to enter another similar situation in the future.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:17:38

Allow me a quick moment to thank you for tuning in to Fine is a 4-Letter Word. If you're enjoying the show, please take a second to hit the follow button so you don't miss an episode. And if you haven't already, I'd love it if you would leave me a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Google Podcasts. Your feedback helps the show reach more listeners like you. Fine is a 4-Letter Word is available on all major podcasting platforms, so no matter where you listen, you can stay up to date with the latest episodes. Now let's get back into the conversation. I think that you say that because you have the ability to do that, to look at things analytically that way. Well, I don't know from my standpoint, not being an analytical person in that way. My brain doesn't work that way. That would be a lot harder for me.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:18:35

That is fair. And for that reason, I have a lot of empathy because I know that not everyone thinks in the same way that we do or that I do. So like, there's there's a lot of different types of, of thinking styles and different brains. And I'm definitely like the, the analyzer kind of mad scientist, you know, trying to figure out all these little data points. And I don't know if that's more through, through nature. Like that was just how my brain came to be or if it was more through nurture, I would assume a little bit of both.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:19:08

Same, Yeah, I would say the same.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:19:10

Yeah. But you're right. And that's not to say though that it that it can't be taught to to some extent I think that people. So here's, here's what I realized and I'll I'll dive into a completely unrelated topic which is dating um because I think that there's a really good reference here. So you have kind of the, the analytical types, right? Want to analyze every, every situation that are totally in their heads. They're thinking and then you have let's, let's just say men, for example, right? So either the ones that are kind of like the let's let's call it nerds or the jocks, right. Okay. Those are some good, good, easy to easy to understand archetypes.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:19:47

Easy stereotypes.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:19:48

Yeah. Yeah. So the nerd like me might, you know, think about asking a girl out and think about it and think about it. And then think about all the reasons why she might reject him and then end up probably not doing it. Or if he finally does it, doing it in a way that is just like super awkward because he's like sub communicated all of that insecurity and all of that over analysis, which I've totally been guilty of. I didn't know how to talk to girls at all until like way past high school. Like it was. It was a challenge for me. But I had my real love, which was computers and technology and business and like it wasn't it wasn't that bad. Eventually I figured it out. But then on the flip side, you have the jocks and they're just like, okay, great. Like we can we can go for it. You know, we'll just it. Take action, right? That's like it's the analysis versus the action and the boldness and. Right. And sometimes over boldness. And a lot of the times even that is highly uncalibrated. But here's the thing about dating and life and business that I think is really important for the analytical people to understand. You miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. So my advice for like somebody that's that's coming at this from my perspective is not. Analyze things more. In fact, when I say that and I break it down, that's really for the flip side.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:21:08

That's for people that maybe aren't that archetype, but maybe are more of. Okay, let's just. Let's like, take massive action, pick up the phone called like. And none of that stuff is bad. But I think there's always a balance, right? Just like there's a balance with the masculine and the feminine, the yin and the yang energies. There's always a balance. So people that are on one side of the spectrum that are that are over here and that are, you know, just just bold, not really thinking, not really analyzing, I think maybe they get to look for patterns more and to slow down their thinking and maybe maybe breathe and really like look through things and plan. But then on the flip side, the people that are more like like I am, or at least like I was before, I kind of like I said, I did a lot, a lot of work, a lot of landmark and a lot of other other personal development workshops that that have that have served a lot over the years, um, to, to kind of grow my, my thinking and my, my empathy and my action taking and get rid of the limiting beliefs. But people are people that are in that in that segment need to just take more action and get out of their own way and not overanalyze things. That's that's the key is to kind of find the middle somewhere. And that's that's where things really start to harmonize.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:22:25

Right? And to find the middle, we say middle, but to find the the combination that works for you because some people are still going to be more analytical than not or yeah, it's you want to embrace it makes it hard.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:22:40

Yeah.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:22:40

Yeah. Embrace who you are. It makes it difficult because when you have a lot of people who are like, let's say they're the gurus who are teaching you how to do X or Y, it's like, Well, do it the way I did it. This is how I did it and I was successful. And so this is how you should do it, when it's really a matter of figuring out what is it that works for you. Taking their advice. Exactly right. You can take advice and, you know, pieces of what they've taught, but it's not necessarily going to be word for word. The way they did it.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:23:14

I think that what you're saying is probably the keys to the kingdom in terms of understanding how to view a lot of those those courses and training programs that you and I, I'm sure both have spent upwards of six figures on. Um. The key is like. It that one thing that maybe you can put on your credit card that's going to max it out when you're completely in debt because their ra ra and they think that, you know, they they have their shit all figured out. Like that's not necessarily the solution. They might be the hype man and the people that are able to just just do that aggressive sales tactic. But that might not be your jam. You want to find what works for you that that. Yes, you want to push yourself because if you stay in the same place, you're going to get the same results. If you keep taking the same actions, you're going to get the same the same results. But you also want to be authentically in alignment with who you are. So you want to stay true to your own character. The key is actually determining in your own mind and stillness and meditation help a lot for that. But determining, okay, is this thing that I'm thinking about doing. Is this a stretch for me or is it really just not who I am? Because if it's not who you are and you're out of alignment, it's never going to work.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:24:28

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. What you just said there is. We have to. I have to say it again because it's so important. Is is this a stretch for me or is this really out of alignment with who I am? Because they both feel uncomfortable. But one is like a good uncomfortable. And the other one is not going to work.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:24:51

Correct. And I'll add this. This gets a little woo woo. But I think that actually tapping into your to your body and not just being up in your head, like really grounding yourself, like being in nature, meditating, finding stillness. Um, and a lot of the times just actually checking your gut. Your gut. I may be slightly off on this, but it's something like twice as many nerves as your brain. And I think it's crazy.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:25:25

No, I think it's like thousands of times more.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:25:27

There's there's more nerves actually, in total. Yeah. I don't know if it was neurons or I forget what the exact term was, but yeah, there's actually more of that almost cognitive sensibility in your gut than than even in your brain. And people tend to just think from up in your head and it it doesn't work when you want to check and see if something is authentic to who you are. You need to tap into your body and not just rely on on intellect for doing it.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:25:55

Right. That's why we have that phrase of, you know, feeling it in your gut or gut check or whatever, however you want to say it. There's the reason that that term exists. That phrase exists. Yeah. And yeah, like you said, people tend to disregard that, especially in business. They're like, No, no, I need to. I can't use my emotions or my feelings. I have to go with solid knowledge. And I think it is a combination of both. Sure, collect all your facts and and also check with your gut, your intuition. What is it that you do, Justin, to get in touch with? You said you mentioned meditation. What what are you is that what you use to tap into your inner voice on a regular.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:26:50

We can go to so many levels here. I think that. Without without getting like super explicit in this area. Because, you know, there's certain there's certain restrictions, but entertaining things like plant medicine. And I'm not saying okay, go and Right. Go go crazy And again.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:27:16

A guy getting super use a guide.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:27:17

But but finding finding experiences medicine from from nature things that take you out of your element and that help you disconnect from your ego. Another thing that works really well is cold exposure. So if you guys have ever followed like Wim Hof, he's got whole courses about this. So, so the cold exposure and also the Breathwork, both of them are important, um, and both help solve. Complementary and and connected issues. So that's that's a really good one. Breathing meditation has helped me a lot. I try to do that at at least once a day. I'm not always like 100% about it, but that that definitely helps to get, get just like a higher, a higher level of connectedness and awareness. And, you know, I was going to say reading, but actually I probably read too much. Like, yeah, I'll either read or listen to sometimes one, two, three, four books a month and sometimes it's great. Like when I'm really learning something, a new skill, okay, I'm reading, I'm learning whatever. But a lot of the time it's actually better to go on an information diet. And Tim Ferriss talks about this a little bit in the four hour workweek. But we spend so much time watching TV, listening to audiobooks, listening to podcasts just like this one, and it's great. And podcasts are amazing. And I have one and you guys should definitely check it out. But don't don't be filling your brain with other people's stuff all the time.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:28:56

It's good to get inspired and it's good to get motivated and it's good to like start to understand what path you want to go down, but then get the specific knowledge, the area knowledge that you need in that thing and then like go and execute and you want to have stillness because the stillness will allow you to process your own thoughts. Um, this is something that actually isn't really widely talked about, at least as far as I'm aware, mostly because people are selling you the next thing and the next book and the next course, and that's that's what creates the loudness in the space. But stillness is so important because most of the stuff that you need to succeed, most of the knowledge that you need to actually reach the level you want is already in your head. You've already you've already observed it, heard it, seen it somewhere, and you probably already learned that thing. So instead of trying to add more and more and more and more, it's just like you're at a Thanksgiving dinner. Turkey is so good, the stuffing is so good. You just keep eating more and more and more. And pretty soon, you know, you're the turkey, right? Right. And yeah, it's like, no, don't keep stuffing yourself when you're full. You need to take a break sometimes.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:30:02

And yeah, I just finished reading a few weeks ago, this book called Stolen Focus by Johann Hari Hari, and he.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:30:13

Said that one to me.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:30:14

Yeah. He talks about the importance of taking time away from all the things, all the distractions, your electronics, all of those things. But the importance of daydreaming that it is it is imperative for our ability to focus is to also have the ability to daydream and to be unfocused. Just what you're talking about.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:30:43

Yeah, and it sounds backwards, but. Our mind works in very mysterious ways. Napoleon Hill talks a lot about the principle of of autosuggestion and the power of the subconscious mind and all these other areas. And it's like. You already have the resources inside you and just just let your brain and your subconscious mind like let them do the work on your behalf instead of trying to trying to just push through every single thing and figure it out yourself.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:31:12

Yeah, that comes back to the whole thing of like, I'm going to make this happen. And it's funny that you just mentioned Napoleon Hill because I am right now rereading for I don't know how many what number of time this is thinking grow rich. And that's the chapter. One of the chapters is autosuggestion. But yes, you need to let your brain kind of marinate in all of the ideas that you have taken in and see what comes out from that. Yeah. Good stuff. All right, so. That's what that's what you do. Did I. Did that lead to you moving to Mexico? Like your your need to. Get away from some of the. I don't know. Of a Type A people in the United States.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:32:05

Well, it's it's it's less the type of people and more that the US right now is just a complete wreck. For for so many reasons. But I'm actually in the middle of another move. So I decided about a week ago that I'm in a big city now here in Mexico, and I decided about a week ago, you know what? I'm done with it. Screw it like I want to. I want to be on the beach. My dog, who maybe you guys can see back there. She loves to swim in the ocean, chase balls in the, you know, through the waves and run around free. And it's just like there's nowhere really to do that here. Um, and I like peace. I like to be in nature and to connect with nature and to connect with other people that are more about. Spirituality and connection and yeah. And freedom than just like being four walls around you. So I'm in the middle of another move now. But what brought me down here? I think in big part it was a desire for freedom, I think in many ways. I do feel like I have like people in general have more personal liberties and freedoms down here than they do in North America. Well, in other parts of North America.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:33:21

Is it is it more of a an enjoyment of life?

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:33:27

It is its enjoyment of life, its connection to family values. Its. Just overall happiness. It's funny, I was living in Colombia for three years, and so I got into this nasty habit of saying Hola to people when they came on to the elevator, you know, because that's what everybody did. Like you said, Hello, everybody. Every time somebody came on or off an elevator, people said hello to each other. Every time a person left, they said, you know, Buenos tardes. Like, have a good one, right? I do that once in Hollywood. Everybody everybody looked at me like I was crazy. Like, hello. Everybody's like, ooh, who the hell is this guy?

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:34:08

And why is he talking to us?

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:34:09

Yeah. Yeah. It's like. Wait, no, no, no. That's actually normal. The fact that we're all like, like in, in most of the West. I mean, think about it. You've got all these, like, human beings around you. You go to like, a store, you're walking on the sidewalk, you've got all these people around you, you know, you're even in close proximity to and you don't even acknowledge their their presence. And by the way, and I'm not saying this from like a, you know, oh, everybody that doesn't do that is bad. Like, it's right on an individual level even. It's just kind of a societal thing. And I know I'm very gifted to be able to live here as an expat and have, you know, be making money in dollars and other currencies and be spending it in pesos. So like, I'm very grateful, you know, coming here. It's not like, um, I mean, I have a very good quality of, of life even compared to a lot of people here for sure. So I'm extremely grateful, like, don't get me wrong at all. And I'm grateful to have been born in the US and to have had a lot of the opportunities that I've had. But but yeah, societally, I think there's a lot of I think there's a lot of challenges up there. I really.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:35:16

Do. Yeah. Well, you mentioned the whole disconnection, which, you know, that's like one of the biggest pandemics, epidemics. I don't know what the right word there is in, in our culture started about that one. No, no, no. I mean the disconnection of people and the loneliness. As a major factor for reducing lifespan. Of course, that that sense of disconnection from other humans. That accounts for so much. Well, so many things. So many issues and challenges. But yeah, just that. Like what if people actually did connect with each other the way you're saying that they that you had the experience. Um, instead of just ignoring each other and pretending that they don't exist.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:36:13

It makes it a lot more. A lot more enjoyable, for sure. Yeah, there's a really good book I read because I was struggling with depression for years and I thought, you know, okay, medication is the answer. And I tried that and I thought, you know, this is the answer. And like, none of it really worked. I wrote this book. It's called Lost Connections and Little, Little, Little Controversial. But it talks about exactly that, how the cause of a lot of the depression, which obviously definitely connects to to suicide rates and life span and all these other things. Yeah, the cause of a lot of depression, if not all of it, is is lack of lack of connection with fellow human beings. People underestimate how much that that really matters. And even with with friends, I mean, I don't know I'm not saying that everything is so much better in Latin America because there's there's good things and there's bad things. But I strongly believe that we as a society in in the whole world need to place a greater emphasis on. The collective connection. I don't mean that in a socialistic way. Right. But mean instead of just saying, okay, I need money, I need this, I need this to be happy, looking at all, all of all of the humans around you as as part of a very interconnected, interconnected system. And even from a business standpoint, like what is money really the result of? Well, it's a result of relationships, it's a result of human interactions, it's a result of you being able to genuinely connect with someone and and communicate the value that you can bring to that person. Right. And so. It's all interrelated in ways that people just don't give it credit for. And I think that's why so many people are stuck both in the negative feelings and also in the negative results.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:37:54

Yes, 100%. And that that energetically we are all connected and understanding that that's a whole other place we could go. But we don't have time. But but the, the energetic connection of it being like, like a tapestry of everybody in the world connected to everybody else. You mentioned lost connections. And as soon as you said it, I was like, Yep, that's the same guy who wrote Stolen Focus.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:38:23

Interesting. So, wow. See, we're so connected. Look at this. Look at that. Yeah, right.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:38:29

Yeah. And I haven't read that book, and he has a third one, too. Um, about. Something else drug the drug war or something like that. I haven't read either one of those, but now that I read Stolen Focus, I want to go back and read those other ones too. So, yeah. Um. Wow. We've covered a lot of ground today. Thank you. Before we go to more questions, the one. What's your hype song like? You're pretty chill, pretty chill guy. And you need an extra boost of energy. What do you listen to?

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:39:05

Yeah, I really love levels by the late Avicii. He was one of the most inspirational artists for me, just because of the way that that his music really connects. And there's certainly different genres of music, but, um, yeah, some of his stuff just, just really, really resonates and it, and it, and it gets me going and, um. Yeah, just just great, great music to to wake up to and party to or whatever you're doing.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:39:36

Very cool. And then lastly, if somebody wants to continue this awesome conversation with you, how do they find you?

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:39:44

Uh, pretty much on all the socials. Justin T Keltner and I'm sure you can paste that in the show.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:39:51

Note in the show notes.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:39:52

Yeah. Or Justin keltner.com. They can reach out to me there or send me a message on Instagram, Facebook wherever and yeah, happy to chat. I don't don't have anything really specific yet with you know with any of any of this as far as here's here's a link or here's something that you can that you can see but definitely will soon. I'm working on a lot of content in the space and we'll also be leading a retreat a little later this year, specifically a men's retreat where we're going to be diving into a lot of personal growth work and very strong, vulnerable conversations and and other things. So follow me. You can keep an eye out for that. And yeah, we'd love to. We'd love to chat with with anybody that's a listener here. If there's anything that that I can be of service with.

Lori Saitz:

Speaker: 00:40:44

Okay, cool. Yeah, we'll put links to that. We'll put links to the book. Both both of those books and anything else we mentioned. My my production team will put links in the show notes so everybody can find everything. Perfect. Thank you so much for joining me today. Justin on Fine is a 4-Letter Word.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:41:05

Thank you for having me.

Justin Keltner:

Speaker: 00:41:10

Lori Saitz: Such a good conversation. I don't think we mentioned this, but you can download Justin's free guide on email marketing and deliverability at Justin keltner.com/gift. Now here are the key takeaways. Number one, there's a common myth that entrepreneurship is risky or unstable when actually having a job is even riskier When you rely on a job to provide your entire income. A round of layoffs could take away all of that in a moment. Number two, life is unpredictable. It's not like a computer program where you expect a consistent outcome every time. But there are ways to make things more predictable by recognizing patterns in systems, processes and people. Number three Analysis Paralysis is real, my friend. Beware of over consuming information. Sure, you need to get all your facts before you make a decision, and then you also need to allow space for personal reflection and processing. Number four This is my favorite thing, Justin said. When you're considering a new program or situation that feels uncomfortable, ask yourself, Is this a stretch for me or is it out of alignment with who I really am? Oh my God, that is so good. Number five. Lastly, loneliness is the real epidemic stemming from a lack of genuine and human connection. Say hi to people in the elevator or the grocery store. Smile at a stranger. Let others know they're not alone in this world. Thanks for listening to Fine is a 4-Letter Word. If you've enjoyed the show, please follow and share it with a friend. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite platform to help others discover it too. You can find links to my socials on my website Zen rabbit.com. And before you go, take a moment to reflect on what you're grateful for today. Remember, you have the power to create a life you love, and I'm proud of you. Thanks for joining me. Take care.