109. Life is Great (Please Send Help) with Jason Seiden

Lori: Hello and welcome to Fine is a 4-Letter Word. My guest today is Jason Seiden. Welcome to the show, Jason.

Jason: Hi, thanks, Lori. Glad to be here.

Lori: I don't even remember how we met. It was so many years ago. I know it was more than 12 years ago.

Jason: Yeah, I think it had to do with cookies. I think there were cookies involved.

Lori: Did it have to do with cookies or your book? What was your first book?

Jason: My first book was How to Self-Destruct: Making the Least of What's Left of Your Career.

Lori: Yes, that was the book.

Jason: Looking back now, it feels like I threw down the gauntlet for myself, but that's a totally different story.

Lori: I know, we have like five different stories we could cover today. Yeah, crazy. Yeah, I remember that book. I wonder what happened to my copy. I don't know where it is. I have to go find it. Now I'm intrigued.

Jason: I occasionally still get asked for copies. Actually, somebody on LinkedIn just commented on something that I wrote, and they're like, "When's part two coming out?" And the way the world is right now, maybe we're ready for part two. We'll have to see.

Lori: I think so. It could be, yeah. It could be the prime time for it. All right, so before we get into all of that, I'd like to know where it all started. What were the values and beliefs that you were raised with that contributed to you becoming who you became as a young adult and even to today?

Jason: Boy, it's an interesting question. I think, as a preamble to the answer, I think I would have answered that differently before I had kids, because you become a parent and you want to instill these values, and you hope that one day your kids will look back and say, "Oh, this is what I learned." And, well, first of all, I learned very early, like kids come out fully ... It's in there. They have to blossom, but everything they need is ... I'm just getting stuff off the high shelf while waiting for them. I can keep them safe from the stove while waiting for them to unlock.

Lori: That's a great analogy.

Jason: And then my daughter got asked this question for one of her college essays, and she wrote about the word אֶמֶת, which means truth in Hebrew. And that was what we used. I still use it. That's the safe word in our house. So there's a lot of teasing, there's a lot of kidding, but you know, sharp elbows sometimes hurt. And you can ask somebody, "אֶמֶת?" And that's when they have to stop and tell you the truth. Like, are they bullshitting you or not? And so she wrote about that, and that wasn't anything I ever taught her. That was just something we did. So here you're asking me, like, "How did I learn the values?" I have no idea.

Before I had kids, I would have said, "Well, my parents taught me this, and I learned." The fact is, is where I grew up, I always had education as a value. It was always sort of modeled for me to be curious, to ask why. There were a lot of things I learned that you have to reach people on their level. That one I learned because I had some mentors in my life who, they had great advice. I just couldn't metabolize it. And so when I got to a later stage, I was like, "You know what? I've got to be empathetic, and I have to make sure that people can metabolize what I'm sharing." So that curiosity, the empathy, truth with empathy. And life's not fair. You should be a good person for the sake of being a good person, but don't ever expect it back. The giving has to be what you're doing it for, not the get, just the give, because you're not getting anything.

Lori: Right. Give without expectation and actually live without expectation, because that's where the disappointment comes in, when we expect people to be a certain way and they're not.

Jason: Yeah. So these are values that I grew up with that when you ask me, "What are the things that make me, me?" These are the things that come to mind. But when you add to the question, "Where did you learn them? How did you learn them?" After watching my kids, I'd tell you I have no idea. They were part of the family and the community where I grew up and so they became me.

Lori: Yeah. Very cool. And then, so obviously as you took those values and beliefs and have now passed them down to your kids—

Jason: I hope so.

Lori: What else did you do with them in terms of using them for your own life? What did you do? You went to college, you started working. How did those play into you becoming who you developed into?

Jason: Well, it's a journey. I wish I could look back and say I was intentional every step of the way. And the truth is, I was intentional about some things. I made some mistakes. When you're young and you're always betting on the promise of things, sometimes it looks like you're acting in alignment with your values and you're not. But that only comes back in hindsight. And I'm not talking about anything major. I'm talking about choosing careers and you take a job thinking it's going to be, "Oh, I get to use this skill." And you're like, "No, I don't."

I've always had an entrepreneurial streak. I've always spoken truth to power. I've learned over the years to be better at how I do that. But I chose a career path that gave me the freedom to build things and to explore and to take risks and to make mistakes. And sometimes that meant joining companies where there were leaders in place who would provide me that freedom and some guardrails. Sometimes it meant building my own company or sometimes it meant consulting to companies who need that maybe in a short burst. But truth to power is not something you need around every day. So my career has been a story.

Lori: Yeah, tell me some of that story.

Jason: It's probably the least important story of my life, but there are some highlights. So I was lucky. I graduated into the dot-com boom. I was very lucky in my first job to be the executive producer of Rollingstone.com. That was just crazy times.

Lori: That's so amazing. Because I'm into music too and I just am like, "Wow, that would be so cool."

Jason: And I was such a jackass back then. Again, appreciation for all the people who were my coworkers, dealing with me in front of my learning curve.

Lori: Well, you know what? I think back the same way in the beginning of my career. I'm like, "Oh my God, how did my mentors and bosses put up with that?"

Jason: Because they were the same way once and they see. So I did that. When I left that, because the market crashed, I went into strategic consulting. I was there for a nanosecond. What I realized very early was strategy was only as good as people's ability to implement. And the strategy and the financial strategies being set by people in a room who were working with a spreadsheet, they were coming up with stuff that people would never do. And then you had the other people trying to run the company and they were coming up with—they knew what people could do, but the ideas that they were throwing to these people, just, "I think this will work."

So I found myself in leadership and communications consulting and focused on that gap between the executive leadership team and the people who are making this happen. How do you communicate ideas? How do you communicate ideas up so that you can get them approved? How do you communicate ideas into the organization so they get executed? And to do that, there's a lot of curiosity that's needed. What's the problem we're trying to solve? How do we create a concrete problem out of this amorphous, "Ah, we're not getting it done?" And then how do you tell truth with empathy? How do you actually dissent in an organization without getting your head chopped off? And how do you tell an employee that, hey, I need you to do something different without demotivating them? So all those values, they came in.

So I spent a decade doing that consulting, then the social media came out so I was doing a lot of social selling and social recruiting. So social media became an amplifier on the communication side and a complication. And I'd written the books while I was doing the consulting. So I already had a voice, I was an early voice on social media. So I got into that, the consulting became a product. I was helping people tell their stories. I found that the core of being able to communicate well was know your own story. And especially with LinkedIn for professionals, hey, there's a place for that. So people would ask me, what's a good photo on LinkedIn? I'm like, that's the wrong question. It's like, what's your story? What story are you trying to tell? And what's the right photo for that story?

So I had a co-founder and we developed a tool to be able to help people do this at scale. And then all of a sudden, you're collecting a thousand employee stories. Well, now you've got structured data. We could go back to the company and we could say, oh, you want to recruit engineers in San Francisco? Let's look at the 50 you have. Here's how they're telling their story. Here's how to market to them. Here's your employer brand. So, built that, that company was acquired by a company called TheMuse in New York, great firm. And then I spent a few years really focused on this notion of adoption, like getting people to take action.

So working with a lot of HR tech companies on driving adoption and it's led to one thing leads to another. So now I've got my job at Cielo, which is a talent partner working with global companies to make sure that their talent acquisition is smooth as silk. And I've got a passion project on the side, which we'll get to in a minute. And both of them are just e a lot of fun. I get to do what I do and help people in—we'll talk about the personal stuff, but even professionally, to be able to apply those values to help people get work and get meaningful and rewarding work. Somehow it fits.

Lori: No, that's the thing though. And I want to get into the personal story, because that's what people are here for. They want to know, where was everything fine and it wasn't fine? But what you're doing is so important, because people think that they have to leave their personal life at the door when they go into their professional life.

Jason: Well, I think it was 2009, I got a trademark on the term profersonal. I was doing social media work. And I'd have people say, "Well, I will never be friends with my boss on Facebook." I'm like, "Well, that's good for you, but you know what's going to happen in three years? You or your best buddy at work are going to get promoted and now you're connected to your boss on Facebook. And you may tell your brother-in-law you don't want to connect with him on LinkedIn. Have fun at Thanksgiving dinner. I don't want to be around." So this binary, one side's one, one side's the other, just the carrying cost of that was so expensive that I'm like, "This doesn't work. We need a balance." And now we're doing it again. Everything got submerged during COVID and everything was like, "Let's mix it up." And now we're finding, "Whoa, too far, too far. We need some balance."

Lori: Right. Where is the balance in terms of what employers are asking for—and I'm not asking for the answer for this, but I'm just saying—and your personal life. But I'm seeing a lot of people, especially on LinkedIn, talking about this whole idea of work-life balance. And I don't even think there is a balance. I think it's all an integration. Because at the end of the day, it's all one life. It's all your life. Whether you're at work or you're at home or you're out in your community, you're one person and it's your life. These are all pieces of it, but it's all integrated into one person's life.

Jason: And this is the transition. Because this smacked me in the face. I'm off doing talks and I'm being really pithy. This is a decade ago and I'm giving these talks about exactly this. And I'm saying things like, "There is no such thing as work-life balance." You know what the opposite of work is? Play. You know what the opposite of life is? Death. So if you put work over here, you kind of assume play is over here. But if you put life here, now play and life are in the same bucket. If you put life over here, death is kind of subconsciously over here. So now work is death. So this is a mess. It's one thing to conceptualize that.

I had to figure that out in a hurry in 2018. You said, "When did you think things were fine and they suddenly weren't fine?" So 2016 was an awful year for me. So 2016, I got divorced and I had a kid who got sick and I put my dog down. It was just a mess. And then in 2018, I am literally negotiating for a job. I am going from 1099 to W-2. Nobody at the company I was going to knew that my daughter was sick, because when you're a consultant, you keep some of the stuff to yourself. And I lost my daughter. 15 years old. She had been in horrible chronic pain for three years. And she died of suicide because she's just like, "No. I'm not living my entire life in pain." I'm in the middle of that.

So I had to figure out that whole work-life thing in one day while I was a complete mess. The universe is like, "Oh yeah, you're going to talk about this? You're going to make this your... Let's see you live your values now, Seiden." And that was July 22nd. That was the day that everything stopped being fine.

Lori: Yeah. And then what? Because you're still here.

Jason: Of course.

Lori: You're still breathing. And I don't have children. I can't even imagine what that feels like or how you managed to pick your head up off the pillow and get out of bed ever again.

Jason: First of all, don't imagine it. Let me just be really clear. I tell this to everybody.

Lori: Because I can't.

Jason: Yeah. And the natural reaction, you hear something like that, you're like, "Oh my God, I can't imagine." Please don't. Right? Listeners, don't imagine. This isn't like you're hanging out with your friends and somebody's like, "Ooh, ooh, this salad dress tastes funky. Try it." It's not one of those.

Lori: The answer to that is always no anyway.

Jason: Right. But this was a dark hole. And what I would tell everybody is do not imagine how dark this hole is. In fact, I don't want to be here. I certainly don't want you down in here with me. Throw me a rope. Go give your kids a hug. Go give your spouse a hug. Go tell me you took your pet for a four-hour walk. Don't say I can't imagine. Tell me, you know what? I hear you. I just had dinner and we all put our phones down and looked each other in the eye. The best dinner we've had in years. I want to hear that story. That's the rope. Get me out of here.

And I got really lucky, because that realization that that's what I needed and wanted hit me like a thunderbolt. So how do you get out of bed initially? Well, shock is protective. Thank God for shock.

Well, first, let me back up before I even get to my realization. I was very lucky. I have a woman in my life, Lisa, who was just incredibly supportive. She showed up and she took care of everything. I had my own personal communications team. So people didn't know how to talk to me and she was fielding all that and sort of bridging the communications so that people knew that I wanted to hear from them and they had some guidance on what to say. It was incredibly helpful. Really lucky to have help. And I had to let that in. I'm a guy of a certain age. I help you. You don't help me. So accepting help and allowing myself to break down in front of people was... I just went with it.

And I think it was the third day. So the second full day after my daughter died, I was a puddle. I was on the floor. I was like a cat in the window, in the square of light on the floor watching dust particles with snotty Kleenexes all over. I was alone in my apartment, and I just had this thought. It didn't even feel like my thought. And it was, here is this girl who with her birth, my oldest born daughter, with her birth expands my capacity for joy beyond what I thought possible, and now with her death has just expanded my capacity for grief beyond what I thought possible. And what a gift to be able to expand my capacity for life. What a gift that is. And I suddenly became so appreciative for this ability to live more life and for this expanded experience. And it's not that I wasn't sad all of a sudden. I was just, at a metal level, joyful for the ability to feel deeper sad. I recognized that I was able to experience greater joy. I'm like, "Oh, this is incredible."

And then the voice. And usually, this voice is trying to talk to you into a good mood. So you're going to a party and you look really good. And then somebody on the street kind of like, "Eh," gives you one of these. You're like, "Oh no, do I look...?" And the voice is like, "Don't listen to that person. That person doesn't know you. Ignore them." So that voice starts in and that voice starts telling... So I have this, the clouds have parted and I am joyful. My daughter's just died and I have this like transcendent moment of joy. And then the voice starts and the voice is like, "You can't be happy." If this had been a mentor or a grandparent or even an older parent, this would make total sense. But this is your daughter, you're not allowed. And I remember, you have the dialogue in your head. I'm like, "Voice, what the fuck are you talking about?" Like, "What? I know you. You're always trying to talk me into a good mood and it never works. And now you're trying to talk me into a bad... Fuck off."

And I'm sitting alone in my apartment and now I am laughing. And I'm just like laughing at the ridiculousness of being happy. I'm laughing at the ridiculousness of trying to talk myself back into sadness, and I'm just laughing with the joy of being able to... So I had that moment, and that moment has been a true north. That became my value. All the stuff I grew up with took a backseat to that moment.

And what I took away from it—and this is all happening in an instant. I mean, the mood lasts 10 minutes. But what I took away from it was I cannot honor my daughter crumpled up on the floor. I honor her by living a full life. I honor her by feeling all the emotions, by being in the moment, by experiencing the highs and lows, and by putting love into this world. And if her legacy is that her dad fell apart and then her sister falls apart and her mom falls apart and then her dad is remarried and then brings that badness to his kids and to ... How awful would that be? That's not what she would want and that's not what I would want.

So it's a little selfish, but it's joyful. To put joy into the world, that's what we're here for. And I hate the way I learned the lesson. I absolutely... People say I wouldn't change a thing because it's what... Hell no. I would much rather have reached here a different way. And I have moments where I wish I had my small life back. But it did crack me open. I do know that. And I think it is absolutely why we're here. So I get up every day and I make my bed every day and I make mistakes every day, but I try to put a little more joy and a little more love into this world every day because that's why we're here. And that's the best way I can honor her.

Lori: I love that. That is so beautiful. And I have two things. I want to go back to the voice that was trying to tell you that you needed to be sad, because I think that we often hear that same voice, our own same voice, that's like, "Well, wait a second. This isn't the appropriate response to the situation." And then we go, "Oh yeah, that's right." And we'll fall back into what is expected. And it's a matter of recognizing that that voice is probably not really you. It's probably not your inner truth. Your inner truth was telling you to be joyful. But somewhere, some conditioning in the back of your other than conscious mind was like, "Well, wait, this is a sad occasion. No happiness here." And so we could listen to that. And this is why, again, it's so important for people to really tap into what is your inner voice telling you. Your inner voice was telling you, "Find the joy here. Find the expansiveness."

Jason: Yeah. So I think this is where the values I grew up with were helpful. That curiosity, a healthy lack of respect for authority, I'd say. It should be respected and it's there for a reason. But if you are curious, you poke into things. And when that authority is like, "No," you're like, "Well, why no?" I'll accept no if you can tell me why. And a sign is, "Life's not fair." Okay, great. So you don't want me to do this. Well, I guess life's not fair for you today. There's a certain flexibility that comes with that.

I asked myself this question a lot, because that's all nice, but that's all in retrospect. I can sort of make the pieces fit. And I spent a lot of time wondering, "How? What do you do?" Because there's a lot of times where finding joy does feel selfish. There is a protocol. There is, or somebody else is going to be hurt. Life is not always expansive. Sometimes it is zero-sum, and it's happy for you, sad for me, or happy for me, sad for you. And what do you do?

And what I've discovered is my intuition, my inner voice, that is the reptilian back part of my brain. It moves so fast. It is so quiet. It doesn't feel like anything. It feels like it's when you just find yourself changing lanes mindlessly, and then a second later, the guy comes flying past you at 100 miles an hour. Like, "Oh my God, how did I... Did I see him?" You don't know.

The naysayer, that's the front. It has a different quality to it, and it's more this than this. And I've been in therapy. You don't go through what I've been through without a lot of therapy. I've also had coaching. I had a remarkable coach, and she and I actually went through an exercise where we named those different voices. And that was really helpful, because I did struggle. I got as far as realizing that my intuition, I couldn't feel it, but I felt all the other ones. So it just became an exercise in just shutting everything up.

Lori: Well, and that's a fantastic exercise. I've learned that too, and I've worked with some of my clients to do that as well because you have to realize that those voices or whatever, we're not talking psychotic, but we all have different voices that are coming from different places that have been instilled into us. Those voices are not truly you. They're talking to you, but they're not truly you. So if you can name them, then it helps separate them from you, and you can address them and tell them to step back, take a seat in the back of the bus, whatever.

Jason: Exactly. And I'll say it's hard to really understand. There's stuff here—like blueberries were healthy before we knew what antioxidants were. And I think with this week we're talking about, we don't have the words for it. It's true, but we don't have all the words to describe the mechanism. So it's hard to describe the quality of these voices if you haven't been through this or if you haven't been sort of born with a little extra know-how. But some of these voices make you excited or exhilarated and expansive. And some of them, it's more anxious and closed off. And it takes a lot of practice to figure out the difference between anxiety and exhilaration. They're very close.

Lori: They are, because the feeling in the body is the same. I was just having this conversation the other day with a friend at lunch because she was with me the day that I was stepping into a room I was going to speak in a couple of days later, and it was the biggest room I'd ever been on stage in front of. And she said, "Hey, the feeling of anxiety and the feeling of excitement are the same. So if you're feeling anxious about it, just switch it and pretend you're feeling excitement. It's the same feeling in the body."

Jason: Yeah. When I speak, I literally will focus on throwing my energy out to the corners of the room because I've learned the expansive is good, the contraction is bad. So I create the expansion if I need it. And at this point, I think I probably do more creating of the good than finding of the good. But that's the gut check. It's like when I feel that anxiety— or there's analogs there to other pairings of emotions. When I feel one of those, the check is, can I expand? Can I make it excitement? Can I make it something good for me and bigger and more open and taking care of people? And if I can, okay, great. And if I can't, it's probably not a voice I need to be listening to.

Lori: Oh, yeah. That's gold right there, what you just said, that piece right there. And I would further go, not just can I expand the energy or can I expand this? What can I do to expand it? Asking that question of yourself.

Jason: It's interesting. For a long time, I couldn't get that far. It was just, where am I? And early days, I found the joy. It was a true north, but there were a lot of days I was like, "Yeah, I'm not reaching joy today. We're going to go for acceptance."

Lori: And there's nothing wrong with that. Some days, that's where you're going to be, and allowing yourself to be there ...

Jason: That's what I mean. So I hear you and I agree with you. I just want to respect the process. So I used to say anger was the lowest usable emotion for me. If I could get angry, I could direct that out. Since going through this, anger is actually not even a usable emotion for me. I'm not saying I don't get angry. It's just ... So I've kind of moved up a little bit in that ladder, but there were plenty of days I'm like, "I'm depressed. The sheets are a thousand pounds." That, I would fight through. That would be like, "Nope, I'm getting out of this. It's going to hurt." It's like working out or something. I'm just going to grind it through.

But I would, at the same time, dial back. I'm like, "I'm not going to reach joy. Can I reach acceptance? If I can reach acceptance, that would be great. No. Can I reach apathy? Can I just get that far?" And then when I clear that hurdle, I'm good for the day. And sometimes that's as far as I got, but sometimes taking the pressure off would then allow me to move up. But the first little while, I would keep reaching for joy. And there were a couple of days where that just set me up for disappointment. I'm like, "Why can't I get it again?"

Lori: Yeah, it's too high.

Jason: So yeah, it's like, "What can I do?" But sometimes, what can you do? You can lower your standards.

Lori: Which is completely valid and nothing wrong with it.

Jason: Yeah, we just don't talk about it. So I'll put it out there.

Lori: Right. I'm glad you brought that up, because that is absolutely—wherever you can get to. And all the people who are out there cheering you on going, "Come on, you can get ..." Some days you just don't have it. It's like having energy. Some days, you kill the workout at the gym and some days you just go through the motions.

Jason: Exactly.

Lori: But you still showed up.

Jason: Well, that, you have to do every day. And the other thing that kind of dawned on me was I was very lucky to have this moment. And I knew right then I was surrounded by people who did not have it. And I mentioned earlier about metabolizing support and some of the mentors and people I had supported me in ways that I couldn't metabolize. I recognized instantly I had just reached a level that was going to be foreign to a lot of folks. And sure enough. I went through a grief group. I'm like, "I can't do group because too many people in there were just in love with their sadness."

And then there's people who haven't ... Well, people who have had significant loss will sometimes look at me like I have three heads. Like, "You're not allowed to be this happy." And sometimes people who haven't been through it look at me the same. But it's taken me a while to find the balance. This is who I am. I never wanted to be the guy who lost his daughter, but I can't stop being a guy who lost his daughter. And so I have five kids and I lost one of them. And that's part of my story. And I can tell that story and I can have a smile on my face and I can be sad for the moment I'm telling it and then I can bring it back. And if I'm talking to somebody who doesn't understand how I can go through that emotional journey, that's okay. I just demonstrated something for them. They can go walk and kind of figure it out. Like, "Oh, all right. I guess, is that possible? I just saw somebody do it." It's like a magic trick for some people.

But you have to show up. And once I got my own stuff squared away, I spent some time figuring out what story I wanted to tell and how I wanted to tell it, because I knew there's something important for people to experience through me here. It was really important for me to make sure that I was putting it out there in a way that people could reach it.

Lori: Well, and it comes back to what you said earlier, which was know your own story. And you get to shape that story and tell it to yourself and to others, however you would like it to be.

Jason: Well, I will respectfully agree and disagree with you. Yes, that is true. And it is most true when you realize you're a walking cliche. I am a walking cliche. So there is a right story for me. And when I can embrace the story that is true for me, then we're all good. Not everyone's going to get it. Some people will be wrong on the margins. But yeah, it's bizarre. I mean, there is one right story. I shouldn't say one. There are some right stories for you. You can tell whatever story you want. Whatever story you want is right. Okay. But when you align with one of those stories that actually is right for you, like the whole thing just resonates off the charts. It's like you're playing guitar. You can hit whatever note you want. But when you hit the three that kind of go together, you get a chord and it makes music.

I think a lot of people think, "Oh, I can tell whatever story. I can shape whatever story." It's like, yeah, but that's not an excuse to go hit three random notes. You still should try to find the resonance.

Lori: Yes. And thank you for that clarification. Because what I was trying to say is that we get to shape who we become and the story that we tell in the world. And when you find those right notes and that's truly who you are, that's your truth story.

Jason: Yeah. I agree with what you're saying. Having been through this journey and facing that whole personal, professional thing in the moment, I realized in an instant where the stuff that I had been sharing was just surface and where it ran deep. And I very quickly was able to go like, "Yep, surface stuff is gone. We're just going to focus on the deep stuff." And there's a lot there that goes unspoken that I found myself grappling with. So thank you for indulging me and adding that little bit, because that was something that took me a while to figure out and nobody had shared that with me.

Lori: Yeah. That's cool. Wow. We have covered a lot of ground today. And I know we can go on even further.

Jason: Thank you. It's a pleasure. I enjoy telling the story and sharing the joy that came out of it somehow.

Lori: Yeah. It's really special. The other question I was going to ask you when you said you wish you hadn't gone through this experience to get where you are, do you think there would have been another way to get here?

Jason: No. I believe whatever is right. But I also believe we're like angels on Outward Bound. We're together and it's a trip, and we're in the wild, and sometimes a storm happens and sometimes a snake bite happens. And it's not fair and it's not always a reason for it, and just is what it is. So maybe I was meant to learn this lesson. I don't know that I was. All I know is I couldn't control what happened, but you better be damn sure I was going to control my reaction.

Lori: Yes. That's all we can do. That's all we have control of, is how we respond to situations. All right. Before we close this out, two more questions. You know the one. What's your hype song? So you've been through a lot, and sometimes we need an extra boost to help raise the energetic vibration. What do you go to?

Jason: It's so ironic because it is a high energy song. Welcome to the Jungle.

Lori: It's perfect.

Jason: It's the right energy and I know how to take that and just crank it up.

Lori: I love it. All right. I'm going to put a link to that in the show notes. And then lastly, if someone wants to continue a conversation with you or find out more about what you're working on these days, how do they reach you?

Jason: Easiest way is LinkedIn and it's in/seiden

Lori: All right. I will put a link to that in the show notes as well. Jason, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a long time coming and I'm glad we finally got to make it work.

Jason: It's a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

Lori: Take care. We'll see you next time on Fine is a 4-Letter Word.