119. The Truth is a Lie with Sally Lotz

Imagine, for a moment, being a child and knowing something was wrong, but being too young to understand.

Now picture yourself in a cult without knowing the word for it.

That’s what happened to Sally Lotz.

Until she was four years old, things seemed normal. Then her parents divorced, her dad left the picture as he served overseas in the military, and her mother took Sally and her siblings to a new city.

Suddenly, everything changed.

Instead of having freedom to explore, now all her decisions were made for her. How she dressed for school and which classmates she was allowed to interact with (meaning none). Her role was to do only what others told her to do.

Sally knew something wasn’t right. One of the first clues came when she buried a butterfly she believed was dead, and then unburied the soil later and found the butterfly was gone. If there was no heaven, as Sally was told by the cult, where did the dead butterfly go?

Her new stepfather abused her in every horrible way imaginable. And her mother accused her of being a “bad influence” moments after her stepdad kicked their cat across the room. Sally was made to feel that being sexually molested by him was her own fault. On top of that, she was told there was no way to prove it even happened because she didn’t have two witnesses to back her claims.

Ironically, the people who caught Sally making out with her high school boyfriend didn’t need two witnesses. All it took was their word, and Sally found herself facing a perverted, sexually charged interrogation by multiple adult men.

Sally soon left the cult and joined her father who was now in San Diego, where she went straight from having to follow rules for everything to no rules at all. She finished school, then tried college, but it didn’t work out.

She went back to what felt familiar and found a man to take care of her. They married when she was only 20 and had three children.

Despite all that had happened up until then, Sally’s life seemed to be improving and everything seemed fine.

But Fine is a 4-letter word.

She found that out when her husband joined a cult similar to the one she’d been raised in, and all the same rules suddenly came back into play. She divorced him. But then her mother, who had not left the cult, came to stay with her.

In a moment, when you meet Sally, you’ll join her on a journey down a winding road with double-backs and wrong turns as she comes to cope with two traumas – the trauma of an abusive home and religious trauma. These two things have fueled her career as an author, writing coach, and mentor.

Her fourth book, The Truth is a Lie, is a young adult novel based on her life growing up in a cult and aims to help others understand and gain strength.

Sally’s hype song is “Girl on Fire” by Alicia Keys.


Invitation from Lori:

Like Sally, you may be so immersed in your situation that you can’t possibly see a way out. How do you take a step back when you don’t know which way to turn?

At some level, you know you need to assess things from a new vantage point, but how?

The first step is to go to https://zenrabbit.com right now and download the 5 Easy Ways to Start Living The Sabbatical Life guide.

Once you read it, you’ll be able to understand and embrace things that, up until now, have not made sense to you. It’s only 7 pages, so it won’t take you long to get through. And the five tactics are pretty simple, but once you follow even ONE of them, you’re in for a profound change.

When you’re ready to say F*ck Being Fine, then this guide is the place to start. It’s time to blaze a new trail and chart a new course!


Lori: Hello and welcome to FINE is a 4-Letter Word. My guest today is Sally Lotz. Thanks to Dave Houser, a past guest for introducing us. Welcome to the show, Sally.

Sally: Thank you.

Lori: I always start out with the question of what were the values and beliefs that you were raised with that contributed to you becoming who you became as a young adult and who you are today?

Sally: Oh, boy. That’s a loaded question. Because we’re going to find out about that. I grew up in a very strict household with a lot of rules. But I’ve never been a rule breaker, so I kind of think that’s inbred in me. So I don’t know what to give too much away.

Lori: No. I mean, we’re here to talk about it. It’s all going to come out. You can start at the beginning. So what were some of the rules? You just accepted them?

Sally: The rules were basically every decision and choice in my life was decided for me. I had no choices. So that included my clothing, to my books, to my TV shows, to what I did on Saturday morning. So for me not being a rule breaker, it was very difficult to live that life where every choice was made for me. Now as an adult, I feel like I’m a balanced adult, because I don’t have those kinds of stringent rules. So I feel comfortable how I live now. But I do have some strong values that I’ll never swerve away from. I’m non-judgmental of other people in their choices. I never told my kids what they needed to believe and what they needed to do when they grow up. I let them make those choices themselves.

Lori: Share a little bit more because I know how you grew up, but share with the audience how you grew up, and why those rules were imposed the way they were.

Sally: I’m a writer so I like to leave in the suspense. So I’m leaving that little suspense there. When I was six, my mom converted to becoming a Jehovah’s Witness. Also at the same time, she had just gotten divorced and she was now living with this man who will later become an integral part in my life in a bad way. But the cult shifted my life from being this kid who could play outside and go and do things and have fun and watch whatever she wanted on TV, eat which he wanted, do whatever within the realms of still having parental control and siblings, family, friends. I’m going to go out that far to school. You can’t talk to anybody at school.

Saturdays we’re going door to door, and you have to go knocking on doors. No more birthday. No more Christmas, no holidays, no Halloween, no Mother’s Day, nothing. Also, you must dress this way. You can’t wear what you want to wear and no jeans. You have to wear dresses, and you have to wear this in that. My hair was decided on. Every choice was picked for me because it was a form of control to keep me conformed to that cult. If I started thinking outside those bounds—

Lori: You might reject what they are teaching.

Sally: Yeah, yeah.

Lori: Okay. So many questions. First of all, this man was in the Jehovah’s Witness. That’s why your mom joined?

Sally: No, he was not. They were living together. I’ll say that I was child number five. This was my mom’s third man in her life.

Lori: Okay. How many siblings? So you have five—

Sally: Seven. There’s eight of us all together. So I have seven siblings. Yeah.

Lori: Okay. So there were four other siblings when she went into the cult?

Sally: Yes.

Lori: What happened with your father? Was he still part of your life?

Sally: He was and he wasn’t. My parents got divorced when I was like three or four. I was very young. My mom sent my brothers to live with their dads. So it was just me and my older sister, and we’re only about a year apart. We have different dads, okay?

Lori: Okay.

Sally: And this was in the ‘60s. So this was not a good situation, right? My father was in the Navy, he was deployed, it was Vietnam, so he was not home. He was not around, not by this choice. Back then mom’s taking care of the kids, and he was in the military. So my dad was not part of my life other than letters and presence from foreign countries.

Lori: Okay. All right. So she hooks up with this guy and she joins the cult.

Sally: Yes. She joins the cult. We had just moved to a new town. We moved to Chicago, actually. And our neighbor lady came over and was talking to my mom, and she could see. She’s got little kids in the house, you know. And I don’t know how the conversation went because I was very young. But I do know that she was told that she was going to see her mother again. If she wanted to see her mother again, there was a way she could do it. My mom’s mom happened to pass away when my mom was really young. She was like six.

So this cult lady kind of like said, “Oh, you’ve got little children here. Wouldn’t you like to see your mother again in paradise? That could be your life.” So my mom, she went from this life of how much she had messed up with these men and having kids and having no parents to “Oh, this sounds great.”

Lori: Yeah, instant family, a community that would take care of her.

Sally: Yes. And this lady love bombed us. She did. She was our next door neighbor and she would come over with stuff, cookies. She’d bring her teenage daughter over. They brought me books and Barbie dolls that were no longer wanted. So we had all this stuff all of a sudden.

Lori: And you mentioned that you were told how to dress. Were you in public school?

Sally: Yes.

Lori: So you went to public school and you had to wear what they told you to wear and not talk to any of the other kids?

Sally: Yeah. Not all of Jehovah’s Witnesses restricts my mom, but most of them have a code of dress that needs to be very modest. So I was, “This is your clothes. That’s what you’re wearing. You don’t get any choices.” Especially when you go to the Kingdom Hall or you’re going out in service, which is the door-to-door work they do. “You have to be dressed specifically to honor Jehovah” is what they say.

Lori: So how long did that go on before you—obviously, because you’re not in it anymore, what transpired in between that joining it and you leaving it? What inspired you to leave?

Sally: I figured out really early on within the first year that this was a bunch of bull crap because I had to hear my mom tell—at this time she was still in the process of converting. So I had some friends at school. And this little boy Paul, his mom to called me up and said, “Hey, can Sally come to Paul’s birthday?” My mom reamed this lady. “No, she doesn’t do birthdays. Jehovah or Jehovah’s Witnesses, we don’t celebrate birthdays. The birthdays are of the devil.” I sat there and I just shrunk. I was like, “You had to talk to her that way? Now I’m going to be like the outcast. I’m the only one not going to the birthday party.” So that was my first experience of like, “Is this what it’s going to be like? Jehovah hates birthdays? I mean, birthdays are fun, right?”

Then Christmas rolled around, and it was like, “No, no Christmas.” Then even when she told me, “Hey, we’re going to go to the Kingdom Hall today.” It takes a while. They just don’t let you go. It probably takes six months to a year. And I was excited because I thought, “Oh, we get to go to church.” I’m picturing these little gloves of speck when you wear gloves, and hats and music and stained glass.

Lori: No, that’s not what it was.

Sally: It was a cinderblock building with bars on the front, and it was one big room with folding chairs. I was like, “Wow.” Disappointment for a six-year-old. But yeah, all those things kind of set the stage for me of “This isn’t right.”

I had an experience. I don’t know if I told you about my butterfly experience where I found a dead butterfly out in the park. I tested Jehovah, because Jehovah doesn’t believe in heaven. Jehovah believes when you’re dead, you’re dead. I buried the butterfly. And I said, “God, if You’re real, I know I’m going to unbury this butterfly and it’s going to be in heaven.” And I go, “If Jehovah’s real, it’s going to be there.” So I buried it and I put like a little stake. Then I counted down and I unburied it and it was gone. So that in my head was proof, positive.

Lori: Wow.

Sally: That’s why I have the butterflies on my wrist. But that was my proof positive that Jehovah was a lie.

Lori: At six years old.

Sally: Yeah, at six years old. Fast forward, I’m still in this home but it’s a very abusive home. My stepfather was emotionally, mentally, and sexually abusive. My mom was mentally and emotionally and physically abusive. You would think being in this new cult or religion, as they call it, that they would want to clean up their lives and serve Jehovah and do things right. But this cult protects the predators and the people who do harm, and the victims have no voice. They are the ones who get punished. So it’s kind of like if a woman is raped, she’s told it was her fault because of what she was wearing. If a woman is beaten by her husband, she is told it’s because she hasn’t done enough for him. She’s not spiritually close to Jehovah. She needs to do better. It’s all the victim blaming and shaming the victim while holding up the predator.

It even goes to such extremes as they have something called the two-witness rule. So I’m a child, right? I’m going to give you an example of somebody I know but I’m going to say myself. Her uncle was raping her. She was 12. She went to the elders and said, “Hey, this is happening,” and they said, “Where’s your witnesses? Your could be lying because you don’t like your uncle. You probably came to us to tell us that because this and that.” She insisted no, that it was true. Because she was the age of being baptized, she was then publicly told from the pulpit, “Don’t talk to her anymore. She’s disfellowshipped. She’s not close enough to Jehovah. She’s not relying on Jehovah.” They never say why. But then the uncle was allowed to go free because he just said he was sorry, and they said, “Okay. We’ll have some studies with you.” That’s a very common story. Very common story.

So for me and my sister, my sister was sexually abused by my stepfather. She went and did that, called my mom. And I told my mom some things he’s been doing. To me, it was more exposing himself. Because I also had a big mouth and I would say things. I don’t want to say my sister was an easy victim, but I was not an easy victim. So I was like, “Okay, go away from her. She causes too much trouble.” And I said, “Yeah, that’s what he does here.” I’m like 9 or 10. And my mom went to the elders by herself and said, “Hey, what do I do? I need counsel.” Well, she didn’t have any witnesses. She didn’t bring us. So they told her to rely on Jehovah. She needed to be a better wife. She was obviously doing something wrong. She wasn’t strong enough in Jehovah. And obviously her children, she wasn’t teaching them and training them right.

So my stepfather, the pedophile, wife abuser, animal abuser, you name it, he did, was just allowed to go scot free. So for me, that was like, “This is a bunch of lies.”

Lori: Did you learn from that that you couldn’t trust adults? Did this create trust issues for you?

Sally: No. It created in me a deep sadness that I couldn’t have a mom who took care of her children. I needed that nurturing parent, and it wasn’t there. It was basically like, “Screw you. You guys are on your own.” And I wanted that mom to be the one to take care of me and do what she needed to do. Get up and walk out of the house, but she never did. And she still denies to this day that she’s done anything wrong, which is heartbreaking.

I had some very trusted adults in my life who were not Jehovah’s Witnesses. I had some very good teachers. I did have my dad. I was allowed to spend some time with him at my aunt’s house. So I had a couple of aunts who I trusted. It was very short periods. We’re talking like three days out of every two years. But was enough for me to hang on to that.

But when I was 15, I had a boyfriend who was not a Jehovah’s Witness. Boyfriend. We walked the hallways together in school. We had classes together. We may have done some kissing out behind the goalposts. But I never got to go on dates. I never got to go anywhere. I didn’t get to go to the dance. I met him at the library behind the stacks. So somebody snitched on me. And here in this case, two witnesses weren’t needed. Somebody just snitched and said, “Hey, I saw her with the boy.” And then it was like, “Oh, whoa. You got to get her.”

They brought my mom, took me into the elders. I was 15 and three men questioned me sexually explicit questions, wanting to know every detail of what I’ve done with this boy like, “Did you have penetration?” What? I was like, “I don’t even know what you’re talking about.” “Did you let him touch this? Did you do this?” There were things I was like, “We just held hands in the hallway, dudes. I don’t know why you’re asking me all these questions.” Then in my head I’m like, “Why do they care? What’s the big deal? What about my stepfather? Did you ask him what he did? No, you didn’t. You never even talked to him.” So I was done. I was like, “Okay, I’m done with this.” I got to get out somehow.

So when I got home, my mom said to me, she goes, “Okay, so now you have to choose between Jehovah and that boy.” I was like, “The boy, Mom. I’m choosing the boy.” Her face dropped. She got really pale. And she’s like, “Okay, well…” She tried to give me a scripture to read and I said, “I’m not reading that. I made my decision.” She goes, “Well, you can’t stay here because you’re a bad influence on your younger sisters.” I’m thinking to myself, “You have a man in his house who literally just kicked the cat across the room and I’m the bad influence?”

So at this point, I was able to go and live with my dad. There was a time, a gap in there because he was at sea, he was deployed. So that meant my dad had to get a new assignment when he wasn’t going out to sea, right? So nobody talked to me for like three weeks. And then I moved to San Diego, I’m 15, never lived with my dad, never spent more than four or five days with him. And I’m just plopped down into San Diego with no rules.

Lori: Wow. Yeah. So you go from a rule for everything to complete freedom with no rules. As a 15-year-old, how do you even navigate that and in a new environment? Go ahead.

Sally: I even had a TV in my room, which was like, “I could watch TV at night, whatever I want on this little TV.”

Lori: Whatever I want on those three channels we had.

Sally: Moving the antenna, okay. I got Benny Hill. I was like, “What is this?” So yeah, it was a challenge for me emotionally and mentally because it was a new environment, yes. And I’m a happy outgoing person so I simulated into the school and try to make friends for the short time that I was there, because it was the middle of my senior year high school.

Lori: Oh, wow. Okay. So now you’re out of the cult, you’re a young adult, how did the rest of this play out into you becoming who you are now? Because obviously, everything was not fine in that situation.

Sally: No, it was not fine. It was not fine at all. I buried it all and said, “I’m fine. Let’s go. I’m not looking back. This is my life now. I want to do this and this and this.” I started junior college and found out I am dyslexic and I have ADHD. And that’s what I found out that school was really rough for me. I never noticed it before because I always tried to stay hidden at school. And I went to four high schools, three junior highs, and four grade schools. So I never really knew how education affected me. I never knew about education. It also was a thing. I wasn’t supposed to be educated, so I skated by.

So I didn’t go to college because it was too much for me. I didn’t cope. I didn’t know. I didn’t know I could probably go and talk to a counselor and they could help me with some classes that would get me going. Of course, I buried everything from my past. Then I decided it was a good idea to get married at age 20.

Lori: Right. Because you’re looking for stability.

Sally: I was looking for stability. And I knew in my head—that’s what was drilled into my head, “You needed a man to take care of you. Somebody to be the head of the household and you do your thing.”

Lori: Coming back to the values that you were raised with.

Sally: Exactly. But for me, what I really wanted was a family but I wanted a normal family. I wanted a family that had holidays and did things together. I wanted that Hallmark card family. I wanted three boys. I have three boys, which I’m thankful for. I just chose the wrong person to have them with because I wasn’t in that place.

Lori: Well, again, because all of your role models were such that, how would you choose differently?

Sally: I had one good role model which was my dad, but I didn’t have any time with him so I didn’t get to assimilate that and understand that. I got married young. Around age 29, I had three little kids. I had my kids by the time I was 26. My ex-husband at the time started going to a church that has now been identified as a cult. It’s the same one the Duggars went to, if you’ve watched that. So he came home, decided one day we’re not having Christmas, and I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no.”

Lori: We’re not doing this again. I’ve been there.

Sally: The red flags started flying. That actually sent me into a state of depression and anxiety so bad that I couldn’t leave the house. I’ve never dealt with my past. I just went fine forward like, “I’m doing it.” That was my start of discovering that I needed to heal and I needed to figure it out and I needed to move forward. I needed to get rid of that baggage I was carrying around and hiding. I should say I was hiding it under the bed.

As I was healing, my ex-husband was not liking me because I was not the subservient wife. I had opinions now. Even though they weren’t bad, it’s just like, “You have a voice now.” I mean, he would say things to me. Like I would go to the grocery store and I would say, “Hey, the kids are in the house.” Three little boys under the age of eight, right? “I’m going to the grocery store.” And he would say, “Well, I’m not your babysitter.” The point was I’m supposed to take all the kids with me to the grocery store.

Lori: You’re right. You’re not the babysitter. You’re their damn father.

Sally: That’s what I said, and he didn’t like that. That was the beginning of the end for that relationship. I ended up moving back to California. At this time, we lived in Florida. I’m working a lot on myself. That’s why I started writing and just started that healing process of understanding the past. But I still didn’t deal with—I have two traumas. I have the trauma of an abusive home and I have religious trauma. I have both. I dealt with only the religious part. I didn’t deal with my stepfather and my mom. That took years until I finally figured it out.

Lori: Did that healing come from counseling, from journaling? What were the tools that you used to work through and find healing?

Sally: It’s actually a roundabout way because I’m a writer. My writing friends said I needed to write about this cult that I’ve been. I was like, “I might for kids. I don’t want to write this story if the kids don’t care.” And they’re like, “Yes, they do.”

So I started writing it. And I wrote my first draft. And they’re like, “This is very angry. Is this really your mom?” And I said, “Yes, that’s my mom.” They go, “Is that really your stepfather?” I go, “Yes, that’s really my stepfather.” Now talking about it, it makes me cringe. They said, “This is really...” I mean, they started questioning me like, “Have you had counseling for this?” I was like, “Well, yes.” But then I started thinking about it. No, I had religious trauma.

Then I really started revising it again, and then I started getting to this dark place. I should say my mom was living with me at the time, by the way. I was taking care of her. She had a room in my house. She didn’t know I was writing this book. I started to have days where all I was doing was crying. I was having flashbacks. I called the therapist and the first thing she said was, “Your mom has to leave the house.” I was like, “Okay.”

You asked me up front what my belief system was. My belief system is as a Christian woman that it’s my responsibility to help where I can with my parents. My father’s passed away but my mom needs help. So I have a room. Deep down, too, I think I wanted her to still love me. She’s not—

Lori: Because you said earlier you were hoping to find a mom who was caring.

Sally: She never has. She never is. At that point, I did start some journaling. I did go into some heavy-duty PTSD therapy where we did some treatments. I forgot what it’s called. But it’s with the eyes—

Lori: EMDR. Is that it?

Sally: Yes. She actually took me back to some childhood memories that I’d forgotten about. That brought up some memories that I was able to clear out and get rid of and understand and change my viewpoint, change my frame of mind. After that, I was in a much better place. I was like, “Okay, I get it.”

I did finish writing the book. So that’s a good thing. I don’t have a relationship with my mom. I call her now and then or talk to her now and then, but that’s it. Even talking to my siblings.

Lori: Is she still in the cult?

Sally: Yes. Most of my family still is.

Lori: Your siblings are too?

Sally: I have two siblings who are not. The rest of them are. And they all deny, to this day, that my stepfather was a pedophile, an abusive man. They’re like, “We’re relying on Jehovah.” Even my sister who I know he did terrible, awful things to, still going strong in the cult.

Lori: That’s the power of beliefs.

Sally: Yeah. That’s what I can’t come to grips with. How can you have something happen to you like that and you’re just told—I mean, after all this time, and you’re told that it’s your fault that you were molested, and they let this man go, I don’t know how my sister could come to grips with that in her head. Thank God. I guess that’s my values that were bred into me, my thinking system, but it never made sense to me. And I always stick up for myself. I always stick up for the underdog.

Lori: That was your first book. You still write children’s books. Is it a process of—

Sally: I do. This is actually my fourth. It’s my fourth book.

Lori: That’s coming out soon?

Sally: No. The Truth is a Lie is my fourth book and it came out in May of this year.

Lori: Okay. Got it. The Truth is a Lie is the one that you were writing about the cult and all of—that was catharsis. But it was your fourth book, not your first. Got it.

Sally: They call themselves the truth. It was a process. Because COVID happened and my publishing career with my agent came to a halt. So after COVID, I ended up doing it as an independent published book, instead of through my agent, which is what I had planned originally. But yeah, it took a while.

Lori: How can somebody get their hands on that book?

Sally: Well, The Truth is a Lie is available on Amazon. It’s available at Barnes & Noble online, Kindle, and paperback. If you remember my name, sallylotz.com, you can go to my website, and there’s a link there. And you can get an autographed version, too, if you want, through my website.

Lori: Cool. So, this is a book for children?

Sally: It’s a young adult novel. That’s ages 15 and up. But I have a lot of adults who’ve read it. I’ve had teachers who’ve read it and it says, “That has made me very aware now of the children in my classroom, of what they’re going through and what they might be going through.” Most people read it in one sitting. I’ve had people read it twice. Yeah, young adult. I think if a parent wants to read it for their kid first to see if they think it’s appropriate, that’s fine. There is sexual abuse, emotional abuse in there, but I don’t actually go into any of the acts themselves. It’s talked about. I didn’t want to put that in there, that act of violence in there, because I didn’t want to make it about that.

Lori: Right. Then what are you doing outside of writing? I mean, not that you have to be doing something. I didn’t mean to say it like, “What else are you doing?” There’s a lot. But I guess what I’m asking is, are you out speaking and are you helping other people in—because you said that protecting the underdog or helping the underdog is important to you. Is that part of what you’re doing in your life now in addition to the writing?

Sally: Interesting question because all of my books have the underdog theme in them. I do share on TikTok. I do talk about growing up in this cult and what it’s like so people can understand. I also do podcasts like this. I am a writing coach, and that’s one of the things I like to do is help people to tell their story in a way that is unique to them and to get it out into the world if they need to. It doesn’t have to be as dark as my story, but sometimes you just have that desire to tell it and there’s different ways you can tell it.

Lori: Absolutely. I want to point out here that you’re talking about trauma and the traumas that you’ve had in your life. We’ve all had trauma. It’s not a comparison game of like, “Mine was worse than yours.” Because every person as a human has trauma and I can imagine that the writing about it and telling your story helps you process it.

Sally: Correct. I wrote mine to help others. I didn’t necessarily write it for myself. It happened to be helpful to myself, but I wrote it for others.

Lori: Well, again, I can’t imagine that the book or the end result that’s helping others would not also help you as the writer.

Sally: Correct. Because I’ve had people reach out to me and they’ve said, “This is my life exactly when I was in this cult,” or “Now I understand about my uncle and my nephew and my niece, why they couldn’t leave and why they never talked to me.” I have a list of people who will tell me, “My brother was in the cult and he committed suicide because he tried to leave and couldn’t.” I have these long lists of people who are saying, “Hey, this really helped me understand.” I appreciate that when people say that. But you’re right, trauma is trauma and it’s yours. I don’t really diminish anyone’s experience at all.

Lori: No. And I didn’t get the feeling that you were doing that. I just wanted to point out, for listeners, everybody has their thing, and so you helping people to tell their story is important.

Sally: That’s the thing. Somebody’s told me, “Well, my story isn't like yours at all.” I said, “But you had trauma, you had something to overcome. You needed support and it wasn’t there,” or whatever the story was. It’s different. That’s all. But it’s still there.

Lori: Every good Hollywood movie has that story of the hero’s journey, right? The reason that resonates with people so much is because we all have, we’re all on our own hero’s journey.

Sally: Exactly. As a writer, my hero was on their journey. They get all kinds of stuff thrown at them as they’re trying to climb that hill to safety. It’s just a continual barrage of things coming at them. Then my reader cheers them on because they succeed. They’re like, “They made it to the next step.” And that’s life. You’re going to be going good and then all of a sudden, something’s going to come at you and it’s like, “How do you deal with it? How do you handle it? Is it fine?”

Lori: Absolutely. All right. Before we wrap up, you’ve already shared how people can get in touch with you. Which leaves the one and only last question, which is what’s your hype song?

Sally: I know what it is.

Lori: She’s already dancing in her seat over here.

Sally: It’s This Girl is on Fire by Alicia Keys.

Lori: Good one.

Sally: Followed up closely by Love Shack by the B-52’s. This girl is on fire. I think they’ll be here when we sing that.

Lori: I love that song. Cool. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Sally, on FINE is a 4-Letter Word.

Sally: Thank you for having me.

Lori: My pleasure.

Sally: And thanks, Dave, for introducing us.

Lori: Absolutely. As always, the links to get in touch with you and to listen to your hype song will all be in the show notes.

Sally: Yay.

Lori: All right. Take care. We’ll see you next time on FINE is a 4-Letter Word.

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