53. (S2E17) What Winning Looks Like with Lauren Ammon

Lori Saitz 0:01

Hello, and welcome to this episode of Fine is a 4 Letter Word. My guest today is Lauren Ammon. Welcome to the show, Lauren.

Lauren Ammon 0:09

I'm so excited to be here.

Lori Saitz 0:12

I am really eager to get into this conversation because this is a topic that hasn't been addressed before and is so, so important and really interesting to me. So let me start with the first question because it's always good to start with the first question. What were the values and beliefs that you were raised with that contributed to you becoming, you know, who you were as a young adult?

Lauren Ammon 0:40

Wow, that is a deep question, okay. I grew up in a very conservative family kind of, I'll use that term very broadly, right? When it comes to the kind of political views, religious views, those sorts of things. And really raised on the concept of personal responsibility, that you have the opportunity, if you want something, you've got to put all of your work into it, in order to get what you want out of it. The concept of a kind of broadening on that, right, if you have a problem, my parents were always there to support. But you had to manage it yourself. You had to figure out how to get through that. I was raised in a family of all girls. And so it was you have the opportunity to be whatever you want, your gender or sex isn't gonna hold you back. And if you want to go after it,

Lori Saitz 1:45

did they give you the tools to be able to make those decisions are to find your way through to figure out the solutions to those problems on your own?

Lauren Ammon 1:55

You know, it's funny Lori, I don't actively remember that. A lot of it was having conversations, right? If there's a problem, address it. But I don't actively remember them saying, here's a way you could approach it. Try this. Yeah, I don't remember that at all.

Lori Saitz 2:25

Okay, I mean, it's interesting that they encouraged you to take personal responsibility, which is awesome. And then that's why I was asking, you know, then did they give you the tools to be able to do that effectively?

Lauren Ammon 2:37

Now that I look back on it, it was kind of trial and error.

Lori Saitz 2:44

Okay, which, you know, we're in different a different way you learn,

Lauren Ammon 2:49

I learned in a very different way of it's almost like the next level of personal responsibility of, hey, that's the value. Kind of go figure that out.

Lori Saitz 3:01

Right, right. Okay. All right. And so, you I know, you know, in our previous conversations, you've talked about how important swimming is, was in your life. How did you get into that?

Lauren Ammon 3:15

You know, what, I've never necessarily made this connection. But my I have two older sisters. And the story goes, I was five years old. So I don't actively remember this. But the story goes, I had a ton of energy. I was constantly asking my mom for money and or food from the concession stand. And apparently, I was just a busy body, wherever I wanted to go. And so my mom literally threw me into the pool. You know, not necessarily like, hey, Lauren, go figure it out. But that really kind of like, she put me in some lessons I learned. And then I figured it out. And when I say that, it's funny, I've never thought of this or the connection, it's kind of that get back to the personal responsibility conversation of, I'm gonna just throw you in here. You're gonna figure it out. And then, you know, 17 years later, I exited the pool and I kind of figured it out by myself. But it goes back even farther than that because my father almost drowned I think when he was 4 5 6, something like that. And so when they became parents, what they told us later is it was a life skill. They just really wanted my sisters in me to have it actually turned into a pretty successful career for all three of us.

Lori Saitz 4:38

Interesting, so their fear translated into a swimming career for all I never thought of it

Lauren Ammon

Yeah. Interesting. You know, one of those moments where fear can be a productive driver of life.

Lori Saitz 4:54

Yeah. Right, because we often talk about fear as being something that holds You back and is a negative thing. But here it's it was. Yeah, like you said a driver a positive influence. Yeah. Alright, so talk to me about your experience in the, you know, as a swimmer because you were pretty fast.

Lauren Ammon 5:19

So as I mentioned, I started at five, and literally swim until I was 22. The experience was one. It's, it's sometimes it's really hard for me to put into words because I have such an emotional attachment and reaction to it. But it was probably the most rewarding experience I could have had from the age of six until I graduated college at 22 or five, whatever I started, I learned so and it goes back to that personal responsibility too. I learned so much in terms of self-reliance. self-trust, though, that waned a lot. Through my experience. How to deal with others, how to manage a what I was gonna say like, like, leader, follower kind of relationship, like a coach, right and a swimmer. But it wasn't always leader and follower. You know, my best coaches were more of a partner, and really trying to help me figure out who I was and how I can show up in the sport. I mean, it was everything to me, Lori, everything. If I had to miss practice, I was devastated. Right, I would rather be in the pool than be on land. You know, I was I'm a very rare one sport athlete, and never got burned out on it. Until the day I graduated and stop swimming. I was absolutely deeply in love with being a swimmer.

Lori Saitz 7:12

Why was the most? What drove you to enjoy it so much?

Lauren Ammon 7:19

I get asked that question so much. And I have a hard time or ticket it just wanted you know how you know when you just experienced something in your life. And you think to yourself, that was supposed to happen to me?

Lori Saitz 7:39

I think the reason I'm asking is because I think it's so rare that somebody finds something that lights them up so much that they are willing to commit that much time. I mean, how much time a day did that take from your life? Not take from you, you know, how much time a day did you spend in the pool, practicing at the height for 7 years at the height of my career.

Lauren Ammon

So College, the NCAA limits the amount of time, or at least I did when I was an athlete, they limited to about 20-22 hours. But in high school. It was close to 25-27 hours a week because I swam seven days a week. I swam twice a day on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. And then so yeah, I mean, I had a part-time job basically. Close.

Lori Saitz 8:29

Yeah, well, almost a full-time job and that you were really excited and enthused about, that's where the part comes in that it's, I think so unusual to have that kind of passion for something for so long.

Lauren Ammon

Yeah, when I think back in terms of what led me to love it so much. It was like, I could just be free. Right? You know, in thinking about, you know, summer stare at a black line. That's all we do. Right? You swing back and forth, you stare at a black line. But I remember just getting so lost in my thoughts. I'd have 967 songs running through my head just to get me through it. And I just remember feeling so this is me. I just remember like this is the most authentic I feel it's an opportunity to bring this drive that I had that I don't remember actively developing. Right I just remember having it doesn't mean that it wasn't developed but I just remembered as being like, this is so damn fun.

Lori Saitz 9:36

Yeah, it's almost like you were in this higher level, higher energetic vibration. Like you can get to in meditation, you know, obviously because I'm always talking about meditation and teaching it but anything where you are like in that zone where you and you mentioned it you are genuinely who you are like you are not neccesarily a body, your spirit, your soul experiencing this absolute joy?

Lauren Ammon: 10:07

Yes, in when you said the word meditation, and you and I have had these discussions, I'm not the most successful at traditional meditation, though I'm working on it. What, what resonated with me when you said it, it was that idea of active meditation. You know, because again, staring at a black line was almost like a trance in a way. Right. And it was just a place where I could go and forget about what was happening in my life for those two, two and a half hours that I was in the pool. And, you know, it was some of those moments I, you know, I'd be thinking about something that happened at school, and it would be like, Oh, I know what I'm supposed to do. Like, I figured out that problem, you know, if there was like a math problem or something, and it would just come to me and be like, Okay, I'll do that when I get home was just one of those, like, an environment that just brought out who I was, who I'm supposed to be in this world.

Lori Saitz: 11:07

And to help you tap into your, your higher knowing, like your inner self, exactly what we've talked about in terms of meditation, like, I never really thought about that correlation before you said that to. Okay, so now you've graduated, and you're out of the pool. And what happens? I mean, this is the point where life becomes fine, right? Yes, life became fine, but fine.

Lauren Ammon: 11:36

So I'll give a little bit of context about the last meet that I ever swam. I was Jones to have the best meet I possibly could have. Right, I had given everything of myself for the last 17 years. I was so excited. And I remember before I swam the first event of the meet, which was for me the 500 freestyle 500 yard freestyle. And I remember it starting. And heat one went, I think it was in like heat 8 or something, right. And he won when I was like, Oh, yes, here we go. He was like, okay, holy shit, here we go. Heat three was like, okay, breathing a little heavier feel a little bit more anxious heat for I could feel the tears starting heat five, I was like, holy shit. Heat six tears were flowing down my face. My coach looked at me and he was like, What the hell. And I was like, This is gonna be the last time I might swim this event. And I don't know what's going on. And I dove in the water. I was so crying the entire time. Had the worst race, I think ever. Right? That was the theme for the entire weekend. And I remember touching the wall of my very last event, which was 1650 the mile as we colloquial call it in the swimming world.

And I was devastated. I was like, this is the that was it?

Lori Saitz: 13:09

Oh, yeah. And you didn't perform the way you went.

Lauren Ammon: 13:13

I didn't perform the way I wanted to. And here's this is when I got out of the pool. This was the defining moment of its fine. I got out of the pool, I took off my cap, I had my goggles in my cap, and I just happened to throw them behind my back. They landed in the garbage. That was like, what is that fitting? I was like, yeah, exactly. And I was like, whatever. It's fine. I can't do anything about it. Now. It's all over. That was what's funny is, you know, I think about all this now. And, you know, I often with my clients and working with athletes, I talk about the seven levels of performance. And number three is the I'm fine. I gave the best I could, you know, I'll try harder next time. But there's always that underlying disappointment, shame, the feeling of worthlessness, anger, resentment, right. That's what I felt. And I had no idea how to express it or get rid of it or do anything with it.

Lori Saitz: 14:24

Do you think you would have felt differently if you had swum like great times? In that particular meet, or would you? Because I'm guessing you would have still felt that same disappointment?

Lauren Ammon: 14:39

I absolutely think I would have felt that same disappointment, but I don't think at the level that I felt it. And what's crazy is that as I examine my story even further, my entire senior year was one of turmoil. And it's because I was unconsciously mourning the end of my career. And it came up in terms of conflict, literally an entire year with my teammates with my coach with my professors, and my professors were like, What the hell? Like little did they know that I was, you know, about to walk away from something that I love so much. So I believe that I would have still felt it's fine disappointment, but not to the level that I experienced.

Lori Saitz: 15:31

Yeah, and given what you just said about how you were feeling the whole entire season, it's almost like there isn't any other way that could have turned out.

Lauren Ammon: 15:40

Yeah, but I didn't realize that at the time, right. Of course, I didn't realize walking into that very last meet that I had done nothing to actually prepare for the end. And I had done nothing actively to change how I showed up, and you hit the nail on the head, there was no way I could have performed to my peak with how I was feeling unconsciously.

Lori Saitz: 16:13

Yeah, so. So I want to talk about the transition. And what happened there. And then I also want to talk about the lessons that you've taken away from your analysis now of what happened.

Lauren Ammon: 16:28

So the transition got a little worse. As they do so, part of why I didn't prepare for the end of swimming was because my intent was a political science major, and my intent was to go to law school. So before I stopped swimming, I had already unconsciously move forward to it was this weird dynamic that I had no idea was going on? I was like, Okay, well, the shitty end to swimming was quote-unquote, fine, because Okay, now I'm just going to law school, the rest of my life is going to start Great. Let's focus on something else, right? That's the athlete and me that didn't go well. Okay, moving on to the next thing. Well, I took the LSAT in May of 2004, just after I graduated, and failed miserably. Like, a score wouldn't even get me into the bottom tier of law schools. And, to say I was devastated, was an understatement. The thought process that went through my mind was, I'm a total loser. Right. So here, I was having spent 17 years, literally losing more than I won, because as an athlete, that's the name of the game, right? Sure, is the first time in my life, I felt like a complete and utter loser. And I was like, What in the actual hell am I going to do? my swimming career is over. I can't go back to the I can't distract myself with that. I haven't gotten into law school. I was like, What in the hell? And every time someone was like, Well, you know, are you gonna go to law school? And I was like, Well, you know, um, I just fell and found it wasn't for me. I didn't really want to spend the $100,000 to get through it and don't want to come out with that. Right? That was my I'm fine. Right? Totally fine. Yeah, I had this. No, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna try it again. Here we go. Took it again. One point higher than before then that that second kick in the crotch. Didn't know what to do with it?

Lori Saitz: 19:00

Right, because you didn't have the tools know, to manage how do I manage? Like you knew how to manage disappointing performance in the pool, but it didn't translate to here. So now how do you manage the emotions, the feelings, the everything surrounding, quote, unquote, failure? But you know, we've talked about that on the show many times about what is the definition of failure and re redefining what failure is, you know, in your case is just turning you in a different direction. Okay. Maybe you're not supposed to go to law school. Let's just turn you 45 degrees in this other way. But you don't see it at the time.

Lauren Ammon: 19:47

Right. And you, you hit on something too? Yeah, sure. I was accustomed to having disappointing performances. The difference was I always had the next time, I tried twice. There was not gonna be a third time. And you're right, this. It was the universe's way of telling me. Law school was not your jam. But at 22 years old, I didn't have the awareness to truly believe that. I told myself right. Logically, I knew it emotionally, I could not.

Lori Saitz

I don't think it matters that you were 22 Because we do the same thing. At 32 42. I imagine that people at 82 are still doing the same thing. Like you're not seeing yours. You're still of course, you're disappointed because you're human. That's what I wanted.

Lauren Ammon

Yeah.

Lori Saitz

But in hindsight, I mean, hindsight is always 2020. That's how we can connect all the dots. But at the time, you don't know what you're looking forward to.

Lauren Ammon: 21:06

And I had, I didn't know what to do. I literally had no game plan. I was like, here I am. I graduated with honors. graduated as a D1 athlete. I can't even get into law school. That's what was going through my head.

Lori Saitz: 21:22

Right. So then you what, how did you? How did you find the next opportunity? Because I want to talk about what happened once you got into corporate-like, how did you get into it, you redirected your efforts?

Lauren Ammon: 21:35

yeah, so funny. I went to my mom. And she did have a piece of advice and a way to get move forward. So you know, as I said, I was a political science major, I loved the law, I loved it. I love figuring out law, let you know, the learning about the Constitution. Huge nerd, like was amazing, right? So she said, hey, you know, a way that you can really kind of go into law without going into politics because I didn't want to go into politics. And she said, Why don't you try HR, there's a huge component of the law. So I had the opportunity, I applied for my master's degree at the University of Cincinnati. Got another full ride. So a huge win of not coming out with debt at any moment. So you know, that was a huge win for me, got my degree, and then found a job right before I graduated, and went into corporate America. And as I look back again, hindsight being 2020 I remember shortly after starting, like, is this really it? Right, the I'm fine started creeping in again. Yeah, yeah, you go back to the values grown up on grew up, you know, having grown up on, get a great job, take care of yourself, you know, retire when you're, what, you know, my generation.

Lori Saitz: 23:05

right, right, stay stay the course, and do the thing.

Lauren Ammon: 23:10

I think my intuition knew I never wanted to do the thing.

Lori Saitz

Of course, it did.

Lauren Ammon

Of course, it's and what's really funny, is employment law is one of the most mundane, terrible things for me, right? I get into employment law, and I'm like, I don't care, whatever, you know, take the money. And boy, it's fine. You know, and I say that tongue in cheek, but it really is not something that lit my fire by any means. In your right. And what's crazy, too, so I entered the workforce in 2007. What happened a year later. My experience my first like, legitimate experience in HR was figuring out who got fired. Who got what kind of money. And then of course, how do you keep it from the people who speak to you every single day? Like someone comes up to you? You're like, okay, yeah. In my mind, I was like, okay, yeah, you're being fired in two weeks. So how do I answer this question without feeling as if I'm leading you down a path? And then two weeks from now, I'm going to be sitting in a room with you saying, Here's your severance package. Yeah, I wish you the best of luck.

Lori Saitz: 24:27

Right this question you're asking me now. It's not gonna matter in a couple of weeks. So don't worry about it.

Lauren Ammon: 24:32

To me, that's terrible. Like my values of the authenticity of like being able to be transparent and, you know, being able to guide you down a path though it may be painful, I couldn't do that. And that was just another, you know, kind of point in the storyline of, okay, we'll just get through 2008 It'll be fine. Like, the economy will come back. I was the first time I learned what furlough was like, What the hell is a furlough? I was like, oh, okay, great. This is fun. I Um, you know, and then a couple of years later, still doing it, you know, it was still kind of the fallout, I knew the company was kind of on the decline, it's fine, I'll go find another job and another company and just continuing down that path.

Lori Saitz

And that's what you did.

Lauren Ammon

I just kept jumping companies.

Lori Saitz: 25:23

yeah, it's, it's interesting that you just use the term of, of, I'll just get through it, like, just head down, keep going. Because that's what you would learn.

Lauren Ammon: 25:36

And that's part of the athletic background to have, okay, you just, you know, just put a little bit more work, you know, just, you know, be able to power through, but the difference there was, I really enjoyed swimming. So, it was power, it was a more powerful message of getting through it, you'll there's something on the other side.

Lori Saitz: 25:59

I'm, what I'm hearing is, the difference is you enjoyed the process in swimming. Here, it was an end, it was a means to an end, the process was not enjoyable. And this is such a key point right here. For anybody who's listening is that, if you're not enjoying the process, then the end result is probably not going to be as satisfying as you were expecting it to be either.

Lauren Ammon: 26:27

you hit the nail on the head, and I wouldn't even take it as far as the end result will never be what you want it to be.

Lori Saitz: 26:35

Yeah. Right. This is a hard thing to get even from I mean, as much as I do all the work. And you know, you've been all the people that I think that are, have been on the show have done a lot of personal development work that whole like still enjoy the process. Like, if I had a superpower, it would be teleportation, like, I just want to be there. I don't want to enjoy the process. I just want to get to the end result. But I get it. That's not how life works. So there you know, that's what I'm working on these days. This life. Yeah.

Lauren Ammon: 27:12

And what's crazy is that you know, we, you had asked about lessons learned. And I think one of the biggest lessons is exactly what you said is that in athletics The end result is everything. Right? You're winning, or you're losing, however, you pointed out. The difference is that I loved the process. Absolutely enjoyed it. But what I couldn't separate when I was an athlete, was being so focused on the outcome. I didn't realize I loved the process, I didn't realize the power of the journey, versus the arbitrary destination.

Lori Saitz: 27:59

Yeah, and no doubt, that's what made you as good as you were, like, even if you weren't getting the times, all the time that you wanted, you were swimming at a very high level. And in order to get to that level, you had to be good. So, your enjoyment of the process is what contributed to your success. And, yeah, and so that's, I mean, whether you're, you're an athlete, or you're building a career, or building a business, enjoying that process, and kind of honestly letting go of the outcome. It's not letting go but letting go of the attachment like the death grip on this is what must happen. And this is how I read a lot of books. I love Mike Dooley his book I'm reading again, Playing The Matrix, and he taught you to know, the hows he calls them the curse that hows that's not our domain. We are only in charge of doing that thing. Setting the course like what do you where do you want to go? What do you want to bring in but how you get there is not any of our business?

Lauren Ammon: 29:09

No, and you know, you talk about the whole fine, right you know, just being fine. Yes, muddling through like that. And that's what I did. I distracted myself by jumping from company to company. And, you know, for anyone who's in that fine state, you know, if you feel it, even in a moment, follow it right, because my fine ended it became wildly apparent to me. I just didn't say it ended right. It became wildly apparent to me when I physically could not go into my role as an HR director and talk to anyone about anything. It was, I became so avoidant Like I would avoid everything. And then that started reflecting on my performance. And then I was called into all these meetings of where why aren't you? You know, there and did it in a done? Mind you the company culture was absolutely toxic and abysmal, which was another part of the whole conversation, but I physically couldn't do it anymore.

Lori Saitz: 30:21

So what was the absolute last straw? You're like, I am out, and What? What? What? Yeah. Tell me about that. And then, where did you so you left? And then what happened? Like, where did you go? What do you How did you get to where you are now? Yeah. Because you're in so much better. Yeah.

Lauren Ammon: 30:39

So my fine. What was running through my mind, though I couldn't articulate it at the time was more of like, I just don't feel like myself. Like I was combative. I was conflict. I was I was trying to find every conflict I possibly could, which is not in my nature. But at the same time, it was buggin.

Lori Saitz: 30:59

That's what you were doing with your teammates. But alas,

Lauren Ammon: 31:01

right, right. There is a connection. And, but also wildly avoidant, like if I couldn't get the conflict, then I would just retreat. It was this weird back and forth. But the very last straw was I was in a meeting. And like, but corporate politics literally drives me insane. And so I was in a meeting and I had done a presentation, like two weeks ago. Or before that, I then came back with a second version of the presentation. We were now in a meeting reviewing this presentation for the third time. And my boss's boss looked at me and said, I really liked the first version that you did. And I'm sure because everyone tells me my face in that moment was literally, I'm sure it said fuck immediately off. And I just sat there. And I was like, with gritted teeth. Mm-hmm. Yeah, thankfully, I saved the first version. So I can go back to it fairly quickly. And it was I left that meeting, I ran to my car and cried. And it was that moment that I was done being fine. And I said to myself, you've got to make a change. And this is the time or else you will never do it. Yeah.

Lori Saitz: 32:36

And then what were the tools that you used to transition from that horrible, toxic environment, to be able to come up with the direction that you're going now.

Lauren Ammon: 32:48

So that's when I went, I had researched coaching programs like five years earlier because I had this idea of with my boss at the time of I think it would be great for us HR business partners. That's the role I was in at the time to look into coaching, and see how we can really kind of introduce this into the organization. And at the time, it was we don't have the budget, you know. So fast forward five years, and I was crying in my car, and I literally was just like, fuck it, I'm doing this right now. And I remembered one of the programs, and I was on my phone in my car, found the number and I called the admissions office. And the person as the universe would fucking have it I, I talked to the person and her story was about how she was in finance. And she was looking for a job and she was at a networking event, and she had been talking to either a previous manager or a previous connection. And her story was that person had said to her, you'll never find what you're looking for. Because of how you're showing up. It's apparent you're miserable. And I started crying again. I was like, Oh my god. Right. It was like her story. She had no idea what I was going through. But her story resonated so deeply. Fast forward. I get into the classroom. And the whole premise, I found IPEC, the Institute for Professional Excellence and Coaching, and the whole premise, and the whole program is built on the seven levels of energy, which is how I came up with the seven levels of performance. And it's talking all about how you experience the different levels of energy and how you show up in the world. And, Lori, when I tell you in the first 30 minutes, I was blown away. I literally had the training manual in my hand and I was like, I dropped it and I walked out of the room because I was like oh my god, you So when you talk about the tools, the greatest tool that they taught was you have a choice.

Even if you're in that victim mode, and I use the word victim, not as you're not taking responsibility, it's the victim of I feel like life is happening to me. I have no other choice but to go down the path.

Lori Saitz: 35:29

Right, right, happening to you not for you

Lauren Ammon: 35:30

Right, and just the simple awareness of Holy shit. Even if I took a simple one, not acting is a choice, right? Not acting as an action, and it's a choice. So just being given the language, not only of what those seven-level energies mean. But how I can move myself in and out of them. I was blown away. Because what triggered in a really influential way, is that idea of personal responsibility.

Lori Saitz: 36:13

Tying it all back, but now giving you the tools. And it's interesting, a lot of the people I've talked to a lot of my guests on the show have gone through coaching programs, to learn how to be a coach, but the person who benefited the most from this knowledge was themselves like they were coaching themselves through something that they could not find anywhere else.

Lauren Ammon: 36:38

That is the most powerful part of that process. And that's what I tell everyone, I Yeah, great, I have tools that I can, that I utilize to coach. But really, the greatest self-discovery is how I can completely shift my being in my mindset. And that everything I experience is about me. And everything I perceive about someone else has nothing to do with me. That was one of the biggest mind blown moments of my life.

Lori Saitz: 37:14

Although doesn't it still have something to do with you? Because it's your perception of other people is a reflection of how you think about yourself?

Lauren Ammon: 37:21

Yes, there's always the tie to you. But what was powerful for me is that, you know, I now we can go way deep into my psyche, but you know, for me, it was like, it allowed me the opportunity to not carry so much of the responsibility of the perception I had of other people. Right?

Lori Saitz: 37:42

Gotcha. All right. Okay.

Lauren Ammon: 37:46

My role in their actions, right? Because you hit on something, right? When we see something in someone, it is a reflection of something that is inside of us whether we want it or we don't want it. Right. Right. And so you hit on that connection, but what it helped me do is create a healthy boundary between those two things.

Lori Saitz: 38:08

Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Cool. Well, we are just about up to the end of time, however, I want you to share the cool, just real briefly, the cool work that you're doing now because I want the world to know, I want my listeners to hear what you're working on now. And why it's so important. And then I need to ask you the, the last question.

Lauren Ammon: 38:35

I love super fun questions. What I do now is one, it took me two years to get here. But I work with athletes to train their minds like they train their bodies. And so I specifically work with high school and collegiate level athletes and their coaches to create the level of awareness. That performance is just as influenced, if not more by your mental state, over your physical state, and starting to create the awareness that what you believe about yourself and the thoughts going through your mind have a significant impact and influence on your overall performance. That's why we talk about performance reimagined. Because I get the question of well, what do you do with an athlete who just wants to be a better hitter? Well, my answer is, it's not about learning the technique or skill. It's learning about all the stuff that's swirling through their mind that's preventing them to reach their peak performance as a good hitter. And a lot of people look at me like what, like yeah, a lot of what goes on with an athlete has everything to do with what's going on between their ears.

Lori Saitz: 39:56

Right which you experienced firsthand. Going back to that whole story at the beginning is relevant. Your choice is to work with young athletes. And what you're talking about is relevant to everybody listening, because your performance whether it's on the field or in an athletic way, or whether it's career-related or even just life-related, like your performance as a human. It all comes back to that.

Lauren Ammon: 40:26

Yeah, performance is performance is performance. Doesn't matter where you're doing it right.

Lori Saitz: 40:30

Your and your outer results are always going to reflect what's going on inside. Very cool. So now, speaking of performance, what is the song that you listen to when you need a boost of energy? You need your hype you like it's your like your walk-up song?

Lauren Ammon: 40:51

Yes, And this is really funny because this song brings me to tears every single time. It's This Is Me from the greatest showmen.

Lori Saitz: 41:01

Yeah, good one. Very good one. All right. Well, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. What else can we put a link to? Where can people find you if they wanted to continue this conversation?

Lauren Ammon: 41:10

You can find me at www dot Laurin amazon.com. You can also find, learn amazon.com forward slash guaranteed win. That's a free resource that I have athletes walkthrough and anybody who's looking at their performance from a different manner walks you through the three ways that you can outline what winning looks like for you and start to teach the concept that winning is on your terms and has nothing to do with the external world.

Lori Saitz: 41:41

Love it. All right. We'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. Thanks so much for joining me today on Fine is a four letter word Lauren.

Lauren Ammon

Thank you, Lori, thank you so much.

Lori Saitz: 41:49

This has been so fun.